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Dino
12-26-2010, 09:09 PM
If something goes wrong with the dead wood concept you may cut the edge and the track.
Holding the saw with your hands the saw becomes a sefety device.
For 6? years now we don't have any reported accidents or any serious kickbacks. I believed and tested the theory of the Dead Wood Concept
10000's of times over 25 years in the trades.

When we first started eurekazone we can't get any insurance and I had to put my life inline selling stuff without any insurance ..believe it or not.:eek:

After the concept was proven the insurance companies was happy to give us product liability...and we are happy to have one.:confused:
I don't want to lose my Fiat...

Here we go with a tablesaw. If something goes wrong here...
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1522&articleID=1470099

Burt
12-26-2010, 10:00 PM
That looks like a double blade wobble dado on that 5 pound saw.

toollovingschultz
12-26-2010, 10:20 PM
Blade with a riving knife behind it?

Randal Stevenson
12-27-2010, 12:33 AM
Blade with a riving knife behind it?

Yes, blade with a riving knife. One of the members of the BT3central forum, had purchased one, since the BT was no longer available at Home Depot. (what was in his budget, using gift cards if I remember correctly)

Now here is the part that gets me:
"Hazard: The saw blade on the motor carriage could be misaligned, posing a laceration hazard."

This ISN'T the only saw that that could happen.

Justanotherbloke
12-27-2010, 03:15 AM
Yes, blade with a riving knife. One of the members of the BT3central forum, had purchased one, since the BT was no longer available at Home Depot. (what was in his budget, using gift cards if I remember correctly)

Now here is the part that gets me:
"Hazard: The saw blade on the motor carriage could be misaligned, posing a laceration hazard."

This ISN'T the only saw that that could happen.

Absolutely but even circular saws have had their issues. This problem IMHO is more of an issue of quality control vs design/technique. Imagine if the guard fails to work properly on a CS when kickback occurs. Not just Ryobi but Dewalt, Porter Cable and others have had to recall their saws for this and other issues. Regardless of what you use, make sure that it is properly setup and that you check it from time to time. Never assume that it's perfect from the factory. With a blade spinning at 5000+ RPM, that's a whole lot of hurt if anything goes wrong. One final thing, read the manual. I always surprised how many people don't.

Just some examples of various recalls.

Name of Product: Ryobi Corded Circular Saws
"Hazard: The return spring on the circular saw’s lower blade guard can break, posing a laceration hazard to consumers."

"In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, DEWALT Industrial Tool Co. is announcing a recall of its DW368 and DW369 7-1/4" Circular Saws (date code 200128-F through 200152-F). Under certain circumstances, it may be possible for the spindle on the saw to slip, causing the blade to contact with the lower guard, creating a possible risk of personal injury to consumers."

"PORTER-CABLE® announces a safety recall on the MAG-SAW™ 7 1/4" Circular Saw Kits (Models 324MAG, 325MAG, 423MAG and 424MAG). It may be possible under certain circumstances for the lower guard to stick in the open position under certain operations. "

"Manufacturer: Robert Bosch Tool Corp., of Mount Prospect, Ill.

Hazard: The lower blade guard can malfunction, creating a risk of injury as severe as amputation.

Incidents/Injuries: The firm has received three reports of malfunctioning lower guards, including one amputation."

sean9c
12-27-2010, 04:10 AM
Chinese manufacturing strikes again.

jswingchun
12-27-2010, 10:26 AM
Chinese manufacturing strikes again.
Or poor engineering by the designers of the tool, or more likely, cost cutting decisions by the bean counters.

Tempest
12-27-2010, 06:41 PM
"PORTER-CABLE® announces a safety recall on the MAG-SAW™ 7 1/4" Circular Saw Kits (Models 324MAG, 325MAG, 423MAG and 424MAG). It may be possible under certain circumstances for the lower guard to stick in the open position under certain operations. "

Unfortunately, that is the way EZ is designed. I was able to use my Dewalt tracksaw a couple of days ago for the first time and having the blade disappear into the housing was a VERY NICE thing...at least for panel processing.

Mel Beck
12-27-2010, 07:04 PM
"PORTER-CABLE® announces a safety recall on the MAG-SAW™ 7 1/4" Circular Saw Kits (Models 324MAG, 325MAG, 423MAG and 424MAG). It may be possible under certain circumstances for the lower guard to stick in the open position under certain operations. "

And this can happen with any saw, table, CS, saber, Jig,
I've seen first hand in the 60s & 70s before made-in-china
4 different manufactures. All because attention wasn't paid until blade stopped, we make dust, spinters, ect. moving parts can get jammed. Do we stop paying attention in car just because we apply the brake, no we what till the car stops (or at lest we should). Sorry didn't mean to get on a big horse I've seen so many dump accidents, that should not have happened. (using table saw free hand ect.)
The tools we use have devastating possibilities. Dino has come up with the best SAFETY I've seen in wood working in 40+ yrs. but if you don't pay attention you can get hurt. Machines are made by man, man in not perfect and can't make a perfect product.
A saw that the blade stops the instant the trigger is released would help, the plunge saws(until some one doesn't pay attention and accidentally plunges into the wood as FT advises against and they get kick-back)
Once again Sorry for my high horse.:o

bigjohn1
12-27-2010, 07:27 PM
I would be the first one to say hey I like the plunge saw looks cool.
I thought it would be safer but I see or hear they are not no matter who makes them at this point. What I think Dino and the EZ guys are doing with this is fixing what is not right. Ater that we may see a plunge saw with the EZ system or an option that works.
Just my thoughts on it.

Dino
12-27-2010, 08:14 PM
And this can happen with any saw, table, CS, saber, Jig,
I've seen first hand in the 60s & 70s before made-in-china
4 different manufactures. All because attention wasn't paid until blade stopped, we make dust, spinters, ect. moving parts can get jammed. Do we stop paying attention in car just because we apply the brake, no we what till the car stops (or at lest we should). Sorry didn't mean to get on a big horse I've seen so many dump accidents, that should not have happened. (using table saw free hand ect.)
The tools we use have devastating possibilities. Dino has come up with the best SAFETY I've seen in wood working in 40+ yrs. but if you don't pay attention you can get hurt. Machines are made by man, man in not perfect and can't make a perfect product.
A saw that the blade stops the instant the trigger is released would help, the plunge saws(until some one doesn't pay attention and accidentally plunges into the wood as FT advises against and they get kick-back)Once again Sorry for my high horse.:o

Mel, to correct that...
You can plunge into the wood for doing plunge cuts with any saw.
The normal saw plunges from the rear and offers positive teeth engagement right the way. The blade now is forcing the wood against the sawbase/track.

With a front plunge saw you push the wood away from the base working against all forces= possible kickback if you are not ready for that.
Knowning how things work you can avoid the kickbacks on the front plunge saws. EXTEME CAUTION. BOTH HANDS. USE A STOP to keep the saw in place
until the blade is deep enough and against the depth stop when you can start pushing the saw like a normal saw but again with extreme caution.
If you allow the saw to lift (from the spring) and you're pushing the saw while trying to counter the spring forces...your positive cutting becomes negative.

You can use any plunge saw safer but always you have to remember hat the saw is unlocked and kickbacks can strike at anytime if you use the plunge saw the way you use a normal saw.

Instead of educating the consumers they hide the problem and is up to the user to find how the saw reacts.
some fanatic users are telling us that they do framing with a plunge saw without any problems...
Simply they like to show off or keep the resale value of the tool collection high. And they do good job with that.
They even turn the kickbacks into a safety feature.
Human nature and you can't win.

We have many ideas and working prototypes of what we know is the right tool for track use but this is another story.
Patents, market control, misinformation, advertising budgets and paid editors
are keeping safety away from the consumers.
A magazine with a million tricks how to safely use the tablesaw they like to sell their "tricks" and not to solve the problem.

Mel Beck
12-27-2010, 08:42 PM
Mel, to correct that...
You can plunge into the wood for doing plunge cuts with any saw.
The normal saw plunges from the rear and offers positive teeth engagement right the way. The blade now is forcing the wood against the sawbase/track.



Dino
I agree with what you said. What I meant was when the plunge was accidental on an end cut by moving saw before the plunge was completed and not expecting the resulting push. Not paying attention we all do it, some more often than others. I've plunged using my 5008, even though I would advise against it without hands on instruction. I can't learn some things with only words, I need first hand sometimes.

Eastwood Mike
01-09-2011, 07:15 AM
Truth be told, anything is dangerous in the wrong hands.
Bolting a blade onto the end of a motor shaft just makes it faster damage and usually more destructive.
Some numbnut here lost his fingers using his push mower to trim his garden hedge.
A darwin pointed out- Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

It is good grace that no one has hurt themselves with the DWC. Sure it is much harder for the wood to kick back now, but someone will reach under the rail one day before that blade spins down. We will all say -jee he was stupid. Doesn't mean it wasn't possible.

It is up to us to respect the potential damage the tools we use can cause and act accordingly- Safety glasses, Earmuffs, dust control systems and brains.

Regardless of who made the tool or where.

EMike

Dino
01-09-2011, 11:21 AM
Truth be told, anything is dangerous in the wrong hands.
Bolting a blade onto the end of a motor shaft just makes it faster damage and usually more destructive.
Some numbnut here lost his fingers using his push mower to trim his garden hedge.
A darwin pointed out- Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

It is good grace that no one has hurt themselves with the DWC. Sure it is much harder for the wood to kick back now, but someone will reach under the rail one day before that blade spins down. We will all say -jee he was stupid. Doesn't mean it wasn't possible.

It is up to us to respect the potential damage the tools we use can cause and act accordingly- Safety glasses, Earmuffs, dust control systems and brains.

Regardless of who made the tool or where.

EMike

mike, I did that.:o...with a planer.
I even posted pictures.


I agree with your statements.
On the other hand I can't believe that we use some tools with
the greatest potentials of cutting flesh and not wood.

Seeying what I saw in my life and knowning that
I was just very lucky with tools ( a bad user ) I don't use my luck to
promote my manhood and my fancy tools.
I saw that we had to come up with a better way.

Thanks to all the ez guys and few others we do have the best record in safety
and many times in speed, space savings, cost and versatility.

Safety was taken as a joke and people thought that safety is slow and stupid.
The reality is that if we can find safety all the good stuff are around the corner. How can anyone feel free to discover better ways with a tablesaw?

The tablesaw manufacturers don't want to make them safe for liability issues.
The tracksaw makers don't want to provide total solutions because their TS and other tools are
easier to sale and with great profits in all the extra stuff that you need to use in order to make it safe...

If they make a better and safer tablesaw they will lose at the court by admiting that their older models was very unsafe.

Dino
01-09-2011, 11:30 AM
Dino
I agree with what you said. What I meant was when the plunge was accidental on an end cut by moving saw before the plunge was completed and not expecting the resulting push. Not paying attention we all do it, some more often than others. I've plunged using my 5008, even though I would advise against it without hands on instruction. I can't learn some things with only words, I need first hand sometimes.

Mel, let's look at the blade engagement.
Plunging with a normal saw is positive because the teeth of the blade
grabs and forces the wood against the base.

A front plungesaw offers negative teeth engagement and pushes the wood away from the base resulting in kickbacks.
At some point of the cut the saw is forced to kickback. Hence the stop offering by Festool.
This is why Makita offers an antickick track. Dewalt tried to solve the same problem with a better ( hybrid) plunge design.
I use them all in order to find one for quick plunge cuts if needed but I can tell you that all the above saws was designed by marketing guys.

Very simple and easy to see the relation and reaction.
google kickbacks and plunge saws.

Eastwood Mike
01-10-2011, 02:56 AM
One thing is for sure- no one makes a plunge saw that plunges from the back. Probably somethig to do with Ergonomics. I do like the fact that some manufacturers are putting riving knives on saws. I don't like that some are using flimsy thin steel to give the illusion of a functional riving knife. I once considered how to retrofit a short fixed one onto a smart base....


Had a rather good workplace injury awareness meeting this morning-


The video they showed had 4 case studies and all 4 people said "It was just like any other day at work..."

We were asked to make a caption to communicate to the other teams. Ours was
"Injuries hurt- its a fact. Once you've lost it you can't get it back"

We were asked to write down three things we would miss the most if you were seriously injured at work.

Made you wonder very seriously just how for granted we sometimes take our day to day risks. Play safe!

EMIKE

Dino
01-10-2011, 03:16 AM
One thing is for sure- no one makes a plunge saw that plunges from the back.

EMIKE

Mike, Sears sells one saw that is made by SMC.
SMC has a patent applied for a rear plunge saw and I have
few ez prototypes under testing for years now.
They work like charm.

They don't make the right tools because they don't have to use the tools.
The head of product development in one of the largest tool companies
in US ( Porter Cable) was a lady that had NOTHING TO DO WITH TOOLS.
She worked for a large plumbing company before.

The big companies have nothing to gain with safety and ergonomics.
They like to fabricate "problems" to be solved with their new tools that they will take from the patent applications and tell the inventors to get lost...if they think that they need that tool or feature.
Right now eurekazone is forcing innovation and the customers of other tracksaws systems are asking the companies to copy more and more stuff from the ez system.

Few more years...

Here is a true story.
The tablesaw fence by B. ( I need help with that long name)
It take the industry 25-30 years to addapt the fence.:eek:
I think we're doing much better.:rolleyes::D