PDA

View Full Version : feel free...


Dino
07-16-2011, 12:15 AM
How do you like our new slogan?
"STUPID IF YOU DONT"

After all, this is how I feel having a small shop...thanks to ez.
No panel saw, table saw and no high rent.
Safe, quick and very capaple shop...
thanks to the ez-one powerbench with pbb2stk kit / ripsizer / few SSRK's/

thanks for your feedback.
I know that some may like to be political correct but after searching
google and see nothing but ez silence...EZ has nothing to be afraid.
This is how I feel and STUPID IF I DONT???
Thanks guys.

Burt
07-16-2011, 12:35 AM
Dino,

I like it.

It is bold - "In your face". We've spent most of our EZ life being overly nice.


Burt

Philphoto
07-16-2011, 02:07 AM
Not as in your face as "live your life without regrets" and a hand with missing fingers. But "STUPID IF YOU DON'T" is nicer.

I think, what could be worse that letting someone buy a table saw and hurt themselves? Friends don't let friends table saw!

I am being a bit cheeky, but honest. How could we let folks hurt themselves? If you warn them and offer an alternative, if they get hurt it is proof of their own stupidity.

I can think of a lot more blunt and not nice ways of saying the same thing so I think this is a good one.

Phil

Mike Goetzke
07-16-2011, 02:22 AM
Maybe "Regretful If You Don't" ?

Philphoto
07-16-2011, 03:21 AM
Regretful if you do not!

I can imagine all sorts of advertising images:

An arm in bandages in a sling --"regrettable!"
A length of wood buried into a wall (like an arrow) -- "regrettable!"
A courtroom scene with judge -- "regrettable!"
A guy wrestling with a large sheet to infeed his table saw -- "regrettable!"
Photos of a table saw + a panel saw + a sliding miter saw -- "regrettable!" then a photo of the EZ1 "Regretful if you do not!"


You can exchange the words "Stupid" for "regrettable!" and the same to the slogan. The word "regrettable!" causes more attention grabbing than "Stupid", because so many people are conditioned to ignore safety notices. "Regrettable!" leaves questions in the viewer/readers mind. Questions are a good thing, as people probe and research they sell themselves.

It is late and my mind is wandering, maybe even lost?
Phil

davegadgeteer
07-16-2011, 03:33 AM
Phil, I think you're right. Regrettable and regretful will get more attention than Stupid, and start people thinking about what that means.

Stupid is kind of overworked, and I don't think people will pay it much attention.

You must have done some serious marketing...

ChrisW
07-16-2011, 09:13 AM
Regretful if you do not!

I can imagine all sorts of advertising images:

An arm in bandages in a sling --"regrettable!"
A length of wood buried into a wall (like an arrow) -- "regrettable!"
A courtroom scene with judge -- "regrettable!"
A guy wrestling with a large sheet to infeed his table saw -- "regrettable!"
Photos of a table saw + a panel saw + a sliding miter saw -- "regrettable!" then a photo of the EZ1 "Regretful if you do not!"


You can exchange the words "Stupid" for "regrettable!" and the same to the slogan. The word "regrettable!" causes more attention grabbing than "Stupid", because so many people are conditioned to ignore safety notices. "Regrettable!" leaves questions in the viewer/readers mind. Questions are a good thing, as people probe and research they sell themselves.

It is late and my mind is wandering, maybe even lost?
Phil

These are great, like the 'motivational' posters that friends send me in emails all the time. It grabs your attention.

Regrettable/regretful is better than stupid.

But I might step up the message:


A pool of blood under a table saw--"regrettable!"
A jointer with splattered blood--"regrettable!"
A hand with missing fingers--"regrettable!"

toollovingschultz
07-16-2011, 09:27 AM
I still like "work ez smart not hard" some of the others sound a little graphic.
Andy

roy_okc
07-16-2011, 11:59 AM
Dino,

I feel 'stupid' is too negative a word for advertising/slogan purposes and could be a turn-off for prospective new customers. Kinda like today's political campaigns where politician A only says B is stupid instead of how A is smarter than B.

Regrettable, regretful, sorry, too bad, dangerous, perilous, hazardous, grave, life-threatening or other similar words to replace stupid might be a better choice. Or use the same slogan idea but with different initial words to indicate the negatives that EZ solves: Dangerous, back-breaking/physically difficult, imprecise, expensive/costly, (needing a lot more shop space), slower, etc.

Even better, in my opinion, instead of using negative words describing the alternatives, use positive words describing EZ: Safer if you do EZ, EZer if you do EZ, precision if you do EZ, repeatable if you do EZ, (smaller work space) if you do EZ, faster if you do EZ, less expensive if you do EZ, etc. Pair this concept with ideas like Philphoto posted, e.g., show a pic of a large guy wrestling a piece of 3/4" ply on a table saw then a small woman using the RipSizer or EZ track on an STK to cut the same size piece of ply with the 'EZer if you do' slogan.

Roy

bigjohn1
07-16-2011, 12:20 PM
Yes Stupit is a little in your face hard and may bug me enough not to buy and maybe a little Shania lol. (Song Called Don't Be Stupid) Do you like anyone calling you Stupid. There is your background song if you need one for an add.

I must say the other two R's work better and sound more professional.

Dino
07-16-2011, 12:20 PM
Dino,

I feel 'stupid' is too negative
Roy

Roy, Thanks.
negative to me is the 40.000 accidents and billions wasted in imported
copies of many bad ideas.

Is simply stupid...to me.
Let it be negative.
why hide the truth until the next accident...( in few minutes)
and trying to be nice about it?

by the time you read this one or maybe more "guys like us"
may have saved their digits if they knew that:

Stupid if you don't...

Ok, Here is a better one. more poetic?

Now that you know...stupid if you don't? ;)

Philphoto
07-16-2011, 12:46 PM
I like the conversation. I do tend to agree about the word "Stupid" though I do not think we need to be as "Nice" as we have in the past.

Roy: I understand what you are saying about the motivations, and it has merit. The Staples ads are like that, but they do have some dimwit struggling with something and someone take out the "Easy" button. Negative first, positive outcome following.

The foundation of advertising is to take a known experience and build on it. Think of the pitch men Vince and Billy Mays, and look at their presentations. You may not like them but millions sold. "No more back breaking struggles" , "No more mangled hands", etc. -- "Now you can cut plywood with less effort. . ." All the while there are very graphic video clips of negative events showing while those pitches are going.

Chris -- You are right, always leave a question. Questions draw the viewer in. When the reader/viewer is drawn in the reader takes ownership of the conclusion. Hence we must lead the reader to only one conclusion. "It's EZ!"
How about the guy with his arm in a bandage and sling "I did it my way -- the hard way" or "Old school isn't cool" or "lesson learned the hard way -- now take it EZ!"

Davegadgeteer --Yes I have a background in Advertising & Graphic Arts, 20+ years. I had some training in college, but most I learned on the job over the years. I am by no means the best or even good. Passable, and woefully out of date.

Glad to see input,
Phil

Dino
07-16-2011, 01:24 PM
I can see two guys trying to cut a large panel and have the usual burning and kickbacks...and an old lady saying: Stupid!!! Stupid!!! Stupid!!!!

while her old man is backing up to a smart table that the old lady sets
and they both pull the panel on the table.

The guys stopped and start laughing but not for long.
the old man is done with 2-3 cuts...using the ripsizer and the guys are
trying to read the sign from the tool that the old man used...

you got that?
R-I-P-S-I-Z-E-R...

who sales this thing????

toollovingschultz
07-16-2011, 02:16 PM
I can see two guys trying to cut a large panel and have the usual burning and kickbacks...and an old lady saying: Stupid!!! Stupid!!! Stupid!!!!

while her old man is backing up to a smart table that the old lady sets
and they both pull the panel on the table.

The guys stopped and start laughing but not for long.
the old man is done with 2-3 cuts...using the ripsizer and the guys are
trying to read the sign from the tool that the old man used...

you got that?
R-I-P-S-I-Z-E-R...

who sales this thing????

Dino that is part of what is missing the product badging discussed before. If people see the product but don't know what it is they can't buy it. Break down the sheet not your back. So many slogans cut the wood not your fingers, Eurekazone helping woodworkers keep thier fingers since 2000. etc etc.
Andy

Mel Beck
07-16-2011, 04:49 PM
Dino that is part of what is missing the product badging discussed before. If people see the product but don't know what it is they can't buy it. Break down the sheet not your back. So many slogans cut the wood not your fingers, Eurekazone helping woodworkers keep thier fingers since 2000. etc etc.
Andy

I agree Andy
People stop listening and start defending them selves when their told that they are wrong (your wrong:mad:) much less stupid. They listen a lot better when they discover I was wrong or stupid,:eek: ( I thought the same thing but this is what I found) and that I found a better way that makes me smart.:D

toollovingschultz
07-16-2011, 04:56 PM
I agree Andy
People stop listening and start defending them selves when their told that they are wrong (your wrong:mad:) much less stupid. They listen a lot better when they discover I was wrong or stupid,:eek: ( I thought the same thing but this is what I found) and that I found a better way that makes me smart.:D

Thanks Mel just trying to keep the slogans upbeat!
Andy

Mel Beck
07-16-2011, 05:05 PM
Thanks Mel just trying to keep the slogans upbeat!
Andy

Ya like "Discover the Smart way" "Find the New Smart & Safe way" or "Who Uses the Speedy, Safe, & SMART Way"

Ya upbeat you got it. Have them follow:) us not fight:mad: us.

Philphoto
07-16-2011, 05:09 PM
I can see two guys trying to cut a large panel and have the usual burning and kickbacks...and a really hot chick (Playboy Bunny type) watching. They are losing at impressing her. Then Stand Back! Watch the Hot Chick go! Rip Sizer going to work and the red neck in coveralls, with jaws dropped to the floor.

How about the same scene with the gal watching and the thought balloon (where you know she is thinking and not talking) in the balloon "more zero's than the national debt!"

"Saving 10,000. digits daily" (a play off McDonalds burger count).

Woman standing looking at you, waist up on the right hand frame of the photo.
Two clowns in the background trying to rip a sheet on a table saw. The caption reads as though she is saying it . . . "You just can't fix stupid" You could even have some little boys watching --"now I know how they get that way --stupidity is a role modeled trait!"

You can get Bill Engval to be the corporate spokes man -- "here's your sign!" and play off that. In fact if you really want to stay with the word stupid, I would say the only way you can is with Bill Engval as you spokesman and in the ads. Bill's routines with stupid and making jokes about stupidity, is the only way to make it non offensive.

Phil

Dino
07-16-2011, 05:22 PM
I agree Andy
People stop listening and start defending them selves when their told that they are wrong (your wrong:mad:) much less stupid. They listen a lot better when they discover I was wrong or stupid,:eek: ( I thought the same thing but this is what I found) and that I found a better way that makes me smart.:D

Mel, we know about defending what you learned even if is wrong to others.

I dont care about the one's that tried very hard to put a stop in new ways and inventions in order to protect their interests...
New guys and the one's with open mind is our future.
I dont think the ez-guys are going to get insulted.

For the rest? I don't care. why even try to be nice to them?
If they feel that I call them stupid...
maybe they can take the challenge and prove me wrong. very simple.
btw, the avoided the ez challenges for many years so they can attack
with total freedom.

Dino
07-16-2011, 05:27 PM
Bill's routines with stupid and making jokes about stupidity, is the only way to make it non offensive.

Phil

Phil, offensive to me is dictated silence.
why non offensive?
read my very first post?

tx

davegadgeteer
07-16-2011, 08:09 PM
It's not a question of offensive or not, or whether we're justified in using certain words, or whether it's our right, or whether we deserve to have our say.

The question is, which words will be most effective in getting EZ adopted. Most potential customers have never heard of us, and don't know the unfair history, and aren't interested in that.

We need to get their attention, get them to re-think their prejudices that favor table saws, get them to take a look at EZ.

toollovingschultz
07-16-2011, 08:15 PM
It's not a question of offensive or not, or whether we're justified in using certain words, or whether it's our right, or whether we deserve to have our say.

The question is, which words will be most effective in getting EZ adopted. Most potential customers have never heard of us, and don't know the unfair history, and aren't interested in that.

We need to get their attention, get them to re-think their prejudices that favor table saws, get them to take a look at EZ.

Dave my point exactly!
Andy

Philphoto
07-16-2011, 09:08 PM
I was not offering a critique but answering what some of the others had stated.

My main point is always --Winning! We can be right and lose everything or win. In this case winning converts to our way of thinking is what is important. My comment about Bill Engval, is that he has made a career of making us laugh at our own stupidity. When we laugh, our defenses are down, our barriers are down and often we can see ourselves for the silly, foolish, people that we are. We can say stupid or we can demonstrate and let them say stupid. If we can make the prospective buyer say stupid we have won, he now sees from our point of view, and then buying actions will follow.

I would never presume to know more than anyone else here, The questions were open and I offered my answer. I agree that injury is offensive, and selling a known maiming device is unconscionable. I have also observed that when you might damage, hinder, cut off or control someones income -- well, expect an irrational lash out, and the past is proof of that. What we have touched upon in recent postings, is that not only the manufacturers but also the owners of table saws might feel their income stream is threatened. So the battle is going to be hard at best. We all want EZ to win in the marketplace, we who have purchased the product have a vested interest seeing the company succeed. Like the table saw owners vested in their product -- we too are vested in EZ system. The question is how to gain defectors and gain newbies as they enter the marketplace..

I know that getting people to wise up and get with the program is hard, and very tiring at best. You know that the first 20 years of my work life was in Graphic Arts & Advertising. The last 20 years has been in social service work and 10 of that with The Salvation Army. I know how hard it is to get people to change. Even for their own benefit. If they think their income stream is threatened by that change they will not do it, even if there is promise of having more income. Yes you can say that people are stupid, and I want to throttle the poop out of them. However in the end the only thing that matters is winning. In that light I made the comment of non offensive. I would have better said -- making jokes about our own stupidity and foolishness is one way to win.
Phil

toollovingschultz
07-16-2011, 09:19 PM
Phil no critisism was intended I just don't like a negative slogan. Most people have never even heard of ez that is the problem. What needs to be done is get ez out there for people to see. The people who talk against ez on the other forums are such a minority compared with everyone who are potential customers who needs to answer them? In the end it is Dino's decision where he takes his company.
Andy

Dino
07-16-2011, 10:31 PM
guys, what I want is the company to make it and not for me.
Even more than the company...the DWC and safe woodworking.

As long as we keep getting feedbacks like this one ( just in).;)
Whe cares about people that have their mind and interests set?

Dino,
I just received my order. I don't know what I was expecting but WOW. Everything is so well designed and sturdy, a true commercial quality tool system. Can't wait to get started using it. I am the first "kid on the block" in my area to learn of the EZ system, but that won't last for long. I have shown other contractors your web site and they can't wait to have a look at what I ordered.

Philphoto
07-16-2011, 11:19 PM
guys, what I want is the company to make it and not for me.
Even more than the company...the DWC and safe woodworking.

As long as we keep getting feedbacks like this one ( just in).;)
Whe cares about people that have their mind and interests set?

I know that I am not alone. We have all bought into and take ownership in the Dead Wood Concept. All of us want the company -- concept to succeed.

The ONLY concern we have with those that resist, is that the non believers, influence and mentor the newbie away from the truth. You are right we do not care what some cement headed mule thinks, UNTIL he misleads an innocent new woodworker.

I think that is why I want to demonstrate to who ever will listen. I care very little if I make a dime. I just want the best for everyone -- Oh! and I want to have fun doing it.

Phil

Mel Beck
07-17-2011, 12:01 AM
guys, what I want is the company to make it and not for me.
Even more than the company...the DWC and safe woodworking.

As long as we keep getting feedbacks like this one ( just in).;)
Whe cares about people that have their mind and interests set?

You said it Dino

My earlier post wasn't about how to change bull headed or stupid peoples mind, But was meant to not trigger the human nature self defense mode. (Its very easy too do, And most people don't even know their in self defense mode, and it gets easier every day or year.) So that those that have never heard of EZ can keep an open mind and become EZ people. Because I agree EZ guys are not going to be insulted.:)

toollovingschultz
07-17-2011, 12:13 AM
Dino you know I mean no disrespect I am just voicing my opinion I just don't want to get hung up on the negative. I think eurekazone products are awesome as do most people here I just like a positive message.
Andy

Dik Harrison
07-17-2011, 07:46 AM
I personally, do not do business with companies that have negative advertising. I feel that if you have to knock the competition, then there must be something wrong with your product.

Bill Griggs
07-17-2011, 10:22 AM
Have you considered using the old phrase, "Look. We can do this the Hard way, or we can do it the EZ way"? Show folks struggling with plywood and table saw and then show someone whizz thru the project with the EZ one and ripsizer.

An add like that is less neagative and still gets the point across.

Bill

ChrisW
07-17-2011, 11:26 AM
You have to be very careful about negative advertising. It has to be genuine, beyond reproach.

Showing someone struggling with cutting a large sheet of plywood on a tablesaw: I do not know anyone who does that. Everyone I know cuts the sheet down first with a straight edge or panel saw or maybe a sliding table saw. I would be very turned off by someone using this in their advertising.

Negative advertising is also bad when it is directed at a specific manufacturer but I see no problem when it is directed at an old idea.

sean9c
07-17-2011, 01:55 PM
Not really negative advertising, you're not saying your competition is stupid you're saying that the people that you hope would buy your product are stupid if they don't. Is insulting prospective customers (supporters) really the way the company wants to present itself? I'm not sure I've heard a worse idea.
How about something positive like "Woodworking for the 21st century"

Dino
07-17-2011, 06:20 PM
good to see that we all feel different before
they make a pill for total peace. :rolleyes:

I see it bold, true and even funny.
we can play with words trying not to insult the true?

Save the trees....for woodworking. ( this is good )

to be continue...

bumpnstump
07-17-2011, 08:10 PM
A friend of mine is a strategist for businesses worldwide. (http://www.wizardofads.com/) He's very good at what he does. One of the points in advertising he makes concerning a product is that it's usually not initially about the product, it's about the 'felt-need' of the potential buyer: if it doesn't meet their need (not the one you think they have, but the one they think they have), you'll never sell them anything.
It's interesting to me to read the great comments posted here, but, I notice they're mostly preaching to the choir (seemingly); others, outside of EZ-land, might interpret what's being said here in a totally different context.
Not everyone is convinced that anything can be 'better' than a table saw. In their world, that would be truth; for some of us, that was truth, for a long time, thru numerous table saw upgrades, till our need/value/education/exposure/experience/etc. changed, and we discovered EZ. At that point, not only did EZ become 'different', but it became 'better'.
Most of my friends who are carpenters, furniture-makers, craftsmen are intrigued by the EZ stuff I use, but they're really not interested; doesn't speak to their 'need'. Therefore, as I 'evangelize' them on the merits of EZ, I'm trying to take into account what their 'need' is, and how EZ can address it.
Sorry for the ramble, but advertising is too easily done incorrectly, w/the wrong results, than it is done correctly, imo. Producers/manufacturers are usually too close to their product (emotionally) to have an idea of what the buying public thinks about their product. To me, the use of the word 'stupid', is a 'fighting' word, even when used in a self-effacing way; it's a turn-off. When I buy something, it's almost always because I am convinced it will somehow better me; make my life simpler; put me in the 'winner's circle'; etc. I'm no advertiser, but, as a consumer who's bombarded with advertising continually, and turned off by most of it (mainly because most of it is aimed at delegitimizing who I am in some way), I'm hopeful that EZ will be able to present itself to the buying public in an appealing way.
Might be time to pull in some outside, expert, help? Just thinking out loud.....
thanks,
Rick

Philphoto
07-17-2011, 08:54 PM
Rick:
Good information, that was most of us have been trying to say though not as eloquently as you have.

What we do know, that as we speak the federal government is rewriting the codes and requirements on all table saws. All driven by the recent court cases and the safety developments of Saw Stop. Not that these are good things, because the Dead Wood Concept is the safest way to approach the problem. When you say not our needs but what they perceive as their needs, you are correct, though the federal government (as is often the case) thinks they know best and will tell us what those needs are. So like it or not, many a woodworker will be forced to face new regulations, and ways of working. Lord only knows what will happen when some high priced appointee that has never held more than a screwdriver, gets a hold on those regulations.

All of us want to be ready to help where we can, and save our crafts.
Phil

toollovingschultz
07-17-2011, 09:18 PM
One way to get ez noticed would be to get some trade colleges to us the ez system if you get trade colleges to endorse it then you can reach the young mind. I know New york had the boces system in the upstate of western ny.
They had a pretty good trade school when I took machine technologies there are lots of wood working classes in the local tech colleges. Alfred state college in alfred ny had a construction trades program. Just some thoughts.
Andy

Philphoto
07-17-2011, 11:55 PM
I want to introduce a different idea. I have read that many people are into woodworking to help them realize their fullest personal potential. I wonder how many of us that have spent hours dreaming of building that masterpiece of craftsmanship. Am I the only one? When I look at many of the ads and articles in the magazines, can we learn something about the woodworker as a group? Is what motivates the buyer, a chance to make something unattainable before this point? Is the EZ system that chance for the newbie to get capabilities in woodworking that he/she did not have before or could not have without a shop full of expensive tools? Does the EZ system enable the woodworker to create what had been unreachable before?

I know for me this does resonate. I did not have the capability of making crosscuts the way I wanted. I bought my first EZ system set up. After cancer surgery and treatments, I was ready to give up on woodworking altogether when I got an email on the Rip Sizer, that collected with the Smart Table empowered me to do woodworking again. All this time I have had in the back of my mind several cabinets and storage pieces that I have wanted to build. Years of dreams that have gradually been realized and they are now within grasp. I have been able to build some and more on the way. I have run out of cash before I ran out of ideas to construct.

Are there others that have been motivated the same way? Is now a good time for some member polling. Might give us some insight? Some of us may not want to admit that we want to be the hero to our wives but it might be that simple. Maybe it is father son time that is motivating. I do not know for sure, but I suspect there are some common threads with all of us and that will reveal the market target to aim for.

Phil

ac1647
07-18-2011, 12:36 AM
I tend to think that the type of people who prefer to spend their time woodworking are not much for being told their preconceptions are "stupid" much less fear mongering with bloody stumps. You might sell laser gun sites that way (check out crimson trace ads) but not wood working tools. It sounds like we're writing off the established wood worker in favor of a new generation, but even so those people have seen safe table saw work before and probably think accidents are what happen to "other people". There's lots of graphic ads discouraging drunk driving and yet....

People love flashy things, have you seen Rockwells new 12volt line? It looks like something from the future. I prefer the Bosch 12 volt series myself, but I stopped at the rockwell display none the less (and not at the porter cable one). My point is, logos on the ez tools, feature rich ads, a 3d exploded walk around, all of that feeds the senses and gets people to stop. Once that's done, the system IS SUPERIOR, and the safety and ease of use can come into play and will sell the system.

The 12 volt lithium line is a good example. I laughed, out loud, the first time someone handed me a 12 volt impact driver (a Snap-On version). I quit laughing when it sent 3 in deck screws 1in too deep into the wood. Now, even the most hardcore contractors I know are adding them to their kits.

The only way you can get away with openly insulting your customer for not buying your product earlier is to make it seem obvious that ONLY a fool would be without. Mercedes does this well. Apple does too. Those are already universally accepted though.

Can't EZ appeal to a new standard of excellence? I like being on the cutting edge, I bought EZ because its an advantage over what's out there.

I won't sell my friends a video of mangled bodies and personal insults. I like this:

Innovative. Addaptive. Easy. Precise.
Eurekazone: The Future of Woodworking

Or
Eurekazone: Precision Results, Practical Tools

Or
EZ Smart: The Next Generation of Woodworking

Or
For the Craftsman that Demands More: EZ Smart

Or
You're Innovative, why aren't your tools?
EZ Smart: Safety in Precision

I'd give a second glance, but maybe that's just me. I love the EZ system, and I bought it because the ads asked "why not more, why not better?" I know I can cut my fingers off on a TS, that isn't why I stay with EZ now.

whitejacket
07-18-2011, 01:17 AM
AC -- I like those little slogans. I especially like the last one "You're Innovative, why aren't your tools? EZ Smart: Safety in Precision"

How about this: have a picture of a table saw with the words "Time to leave the stone age" and next to the table saw have the EZ-One with the words "Embrace the future"

Here is another idea (plays along the "stupid" concept without actually using the word "stupid"): "Move a small piece of wood into a blade spinning toward me at 4300 RPM? I don't think so!" pan to the EZ-One or other EZ tool "That wood isn't going anywhere. Move the tool...Not the wood!"

There are just so many ways it can be done. I am so glad this discussion is here and that EZ is ready to make a serious splash.

Joe

ac1647
07-18-2011, 02:49 AM
Joe,

I think that's excellent. Again, I'm thinking about what I respond to (I'm a hobbiest not a pro). Sure the tools compete with the tablesaw, but it's really compelling to do what your suggesting and just write the tablesaw off as antiquated from the beginning. I think ripsizer vs tablesaw is a great future vs. outdated matchup too. For the price and size of a ripsizer, even a dedicated table saw user could be persuaded to have one for sheet goods. Like every one of us on the forum, it would only take one use to have the "eureka" (pun intended) moment and see the value in everything.

roy_okc
07-18-2011, 09:27 AM
"Move the tool...Not the wood!"

Joe

Joe,

I like that for a slogan. Perfect for describing the DWC in a catchy phrase.

Roy

Philphoto
07-18-2011, 12:44 PM
Two images -- the head of a Tyrannosaurus Rex with long slashing teeth and the a Table Saw.

Headline above photos:
What do these two have in common?

Answer below photos:
Both will mangle and kill and both Extinct (or will be).

EZ Systems -- Higher on the evolutionary scale.
BTW: You will never be part of it's food chain.

Sorry -- having a run away brain.
Phil

Eastwood Mike
07-18-2011, 10:07 PM
Have you considered using the old phrase, "Look. We can do this the Hard way, or we can do it the EZ way"? Show folks struggling with plywood and table saw and then show someone whizz thru the project with the EZ one and ripsizer.

An add like that is less neagative and still gets the point across.

Bill



Dear Forumites.
I personaly do not think the EZ image issues has anything to do with lack of exposure, rather than as one person pointed out, a lack of need.
We keep pitching this DWC against table saws and Jointers (certainly in this thread).

But we always keep coming back to how safe it is to cut down sheet material.
We constantly forget that people who cut down sheets would sooner have a panel saw any day. the Table saw (AFAIK) is for cutting up stock. 1" by 8" boards, 90x90s miters, tapers, repeat cross cuts etc. PANELS, like tenons and fingerjoints and dadoes are things the Table saw have been adapted for (with jigs of course). And yes with the right outfeed and infeed tables set up we can cut sheets on a bog standard unisaw safely as well. Will it compete against an Attendorf? No but it will get the job done.

But until it is show ON THE WEBSITE the DWC performing ALL of these tasks, on stuff Other than JUST PANELS... I honestly can't say it will make a difference what slogan is chosen, people will still only compare two products on their merits. If you want people to witch off from Tablesaws, then you have to -in no uncertain terms- demonstrate to them that it can do everything a TS can do, even if jigs are involved.

This is my personal opinion- not a professional one- I am just a lowely consumer and hobbiest who at this point scrapes by with a track, handsaws and handplanes.

EMike

Philphoto
07-19-2011, 12:33 AM
I would just plain disagree. My son (He has a sign company) has two panel saws with vacuum systems. I am sorry that I do not remember the brand right now, but he bought one used for $1400 and that was a steal on a bankruptcy sale. I do some of the woodworking for him, as it keeps me out of his hair. My Rip Sizer and Smart Table was less than $250. , and yet my Rip Sizer with Smart Table out did his panel saws. I can do the work with more accuracy, cleaner cuts, and by my self, with my disability (one bad arm) than my son or any of his crew, can do on his panel saws. As a side note, both panel saws are considered very good (I think the one is the 2nd best brand) and they still can veer off if you feed too fast. Both panel saws will pinch the blade due to gravity. These are things my Rip Sizer does not do.

I have noted the table saw battle before as a limited battle, and agreed it is limited angle of approach, and really not the total picture. As I and others have noted the EZ system has replaced a number of tools. The biggest point for me -- try taking your 700 lbs. table saw to the job site. EZ systems go everywhere. Does the EZ system take a bit of thinking? Yes. You do have to tackle the problem in a different way. Look at the "How To" and you can see some really novel approaches to problems. Does the EZ system do things the old way? Only in a couple of instances, and that is why we seem to get stuck on the table saw issue. I will however state that many standard cuts can be made with the EZ Systems DWC approach for fewer dollars, and equal or better quality in a wider variety of locations. I would not hesitate to take my Rip Sizer, Smart Table, Track, clamps, and miter square to any job site, hook up a generator, or inverter and saw away. Not something you can accomplish -- or at least very easily with a table saw. You might find a contractors table saw in those conditions, but then you are back to the problems we were discussing.

Those are my opinions and motivations. You are entitled to yours. I just think there are somethings you may not have considered.

Phil

Eastwood Mike
07-19-2011, 10:28 PM
Phil- I don't disagree at all. In fact I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about.

Your son has a Sign company, cuts panels and chose a panel saw as the tool to do that job.
Your son though does not try take panel saws to jobsites. I am assuming you refer to a horizontal sliding table type saw as opposed the the Hardware style vertical Panel trimmer?

No question the EZ and DWC system is transportable. Much more so than most any TS, including the contractor saws.

No question it cuts panels well.

There is also no question the market does not necessarily cut panels only nor are they mobile workers. Yes some of the market is, and a lot is not.

Who are you targeting the EZ system at? The Home woodworker who uses his cheapo saw once a month and has little practice in safe practice? The Pro Cabinet worker who moves a hundred sheets a week and has a heck of a lot of exposure to an upward facing blade? Or the guy on a building site sending up stud framing and laying floating floors? Or the Guy making shaker inspired cabinets or Greene and Greene styled buffets?

My point was simply this- the TS can do the job all of these guys require (in some form of scale or with Jigs). Can the EZ systems? The same would have to follow for a Router table vs SSRK conviction. How can I cut Dovetails? A Kelly jig or Giffkins Jig can. I can do Dovetailed Keys with a Router table. Can the SSRK? The advertorial has to be able to easily a visually demonstrate this. Then slogans can follow.

I respect your motivations and opinions. They are all valid and I don't disagree with any of them.

Philphoto
07-20-2011, 12:27 AM
Sorry I was not clear. In my haste I left out one critical point. That being my son's remorse over spending so much on a panel saw and my Rip Sizer out doing him in production. The Rip Sizer and Smart Table are new additions to my shop and my son has had the panel saws for three years. By the way, the cheapest panel saw I have found here in the states is $900. and I have seen some plans for a build it yourself and the hardware is no small matter either. My point is that you stated -- "We constantly forget that people who cut down sheets would sooner have a panel saw any day." -- and that is not the case entirely. IF someone does not know about the Rip Sizer then the panel saw would be tool of choice, but that is due to ignorance not value, capability, price, or speed. Once the person is no longer ignorant -- Well that was what this thread was about --the slogan -- one choice is due to ignorance the other is due to ???? I am hard pressed to find any other answer than "lazy, poor, or just plain stupid." Though I have to agree that the shoe may fit, but being called stupid does not endear any one. Even if it is true.

Regarding the jigs. Well I have seen fine furniture constructed with mortise and tenon and I have seen dowels. If done properly I doubt anyone will know the difference between the two when assembly is complete. Putting doweling in with a Dowelmaxx versus cutting a mortise and tenon, well time comparisons are shocking. I can be finished drilling and placing dowels before you are set to cut the M&T. I have it on film. Regarding the other joints, well we do not know what Dino has up his sleeves. So I will not comment on what EZ has or does not have. I do those joints with my router and my Incra Wonder Fence LS. I just like doing them that way. If as will most likely happen, Dino will pull some magic out of his hard hat, and I will buy that too. Everything that EZ has, I have found to an excellent replacement for the old way I was doing it. Before I was ignorant, I do not want to prove myself to be a pig headed, annoying moron. I will qualify that by saying that I do not always have the cash, but when I do -- KaChing-$$$.

Regarding the portability. I do not know if you get the same magazines we get here. I take almost everything in print, and to be certain it is almost conspiracy, in that every publication is showing plans, or photos of home or professional workshops. The shops that get the attention are the shops where the equipment is moved around and stored, or tucked away so the guy has more space to use his 800 lb. table saw. It is pretty amazing. The EZ system would put them all to shame. My table saw is 800 lbs. and on wheels that I avoid moving -- it is HEAVY. Even on a heavy wheel system it is more than I want to move. Yet I need the space (and I am not the only person that has the problem) and have to get a helper and move the beast. Almost humorous, the whole line of articles is about saving space or using space efficiently. Not having a table saw would reduce the need for 200 square feet of space. No small matter. A 10 X 20 space is a big chunk of space for the home woodworker, and even more critical for the pro. Think of it -- 10 % of the average size home (in my state) is dedicated to one tool!!! Really want a shock? -- Try on 10% of your mortgage dedicated to the space for one tool! My home is a little larger than average (again in my state) @ 2500sq. ft. , I live in a resort area and the real estate values are high, and my home has an appraisal at $350,000. So taking the logic a little farther, I am at 8% of my floorspace and mortgage. That is 200 sq. ft. and $28,000. for the area of one tool. Thank God my wife doesn't read these forums.

Again, I respect your right to your opinions. I also do not know what sort of lumber, space, power, tools or customers you are trying fit with. I am responding to my observations, and I know nothing of yours. I just think that the EZ system is the best choice.
Phil

Eastwood Mike
07-20-2011, 12:53 AM
"I also do not know what sort of lumber, space, power, tools or customers you are trying fit with."

Hobbiest Home owner working in a 4' by 15' free space (can't really fit the EZ one) So my rails are stored in the rafters above my head. Power tools the same as you have. Triton routers, Hitachi saw, makita etc..

We are a little off track here. Its not a pissing contest between us. Wasn't it about Dino seeing Eurekazone and EZ-One appearing more often in google searches. I'm still in agreement with you. But one thing I have issue is - there is an assumption people even know of the Ripsizer option before they bought the Panel saws. It just isn't the case fore the large part. If Google can't see it, and the website is (AFAIK) the only source of information other than this forum, how could anyone know. Would your son have known if you had not found out?

But then, you get to the website. You want to know if the system you see in front of you will out do what you have been mustering up to buy for months. OK, if you want a Panel saw you may well be persuaded. It is a very compelling argument. And if you have a slightly larger than average saw, you may be willing to take it to job sites to trim doors and 4x2s. I think that has been amply demonstrated.

For the others though, (my opinion here once again..) I feel there is a big hole unanswered for me and it is up to me to figure out how to make it work. There area several cuts made with a TS saw and as much As I want to buy the EZ system, I just can't quite wrap my head yet around how a DWC would make these cuts.

I can't tell myself- just use a different joint. By doing so I feel I am constraining the potential of what I could make or design. I couldn't imagine being portait painter and not being able to use the colour blue. I would feel constrained to only greyscale or some bounded style. Not sure I'm getting my point easily down in words here.

End of the day, I too think calling people Stupid for using a TS over alternatives is a bit crass and galvanising. Many furniture making legends have come and gone and plied their craft with a TS. I couldn't call those still with us stupid either.

Randal Stevenson
07-20-2011, 12:53 AM
Slogan's schmogans.:rolleyes:

Projects done with the EZ and BETTER documentation/up to date instructions, to me would be a MUCH better selling point. You want to insult potential customers, by telling them they are stupid Dino? Then you need to have your instructions in order (remember the idiots your selling to). A long time ago, you started a series on the SRK, more things like that are needed.

Dino
07-20-2011, 01:43 AM
Slogan's schmogans.:rolleyes:

Projects done with the EZ and BETTER documentation/up to date instructions, to me would be a MUCH better selling point. You want to insult potential customers, by telling them they are stupid Dino? Then you need to have your instructions in order (remember the idiots your selling to). A long time ago, you started a series on the SRK, more things like that are needed.

The thread started with a big smiley? like this one?:D
read again and stop looking for something to attack me.
have some fun.

How do you like our new slogan? :D
"STUPID IF YOU DONT"

After all, this is how I feel having a small shop...thanks to ez.
No panel saw, table saw and no high rent.
Safe, quick and very capaple shop...
thanks to the ez-one powerbench with pbb2stk kit / ripsizer / few SSRK's/

thanks for your feedback.
I know that some may like to be political correct but after searching
google and see nothing but ez silence...EZ has nothing to be afraid.
This is how I feel and STUPID IF I DONT???
Thanks guys.

Randal Stevenson
07-20-2011, 01:56 AM
Attacking you?

I am simply saying, treat your customers like idiots, and idiots will end up being the ones who are your customers.

I feel like Dik here, it isn't wise to insult them as they won't buy from you.

Dino
07-20-2011, 02:01 AM
here is something to think.
Only openminded people are looking for new ways.
This is a fact and no openminded person is going to be insulted
by a funny slogan...
Like: Windows for dummies. ( same thing?)

ok, maybe... dummie if you dont? :rolleyes:

After all, look at all the forums and there is total ( almost) ez silence.
I dont think we have nothing to worry.

Search Ripsizer again. NOTHING.

when the Goverment tries to step in and stop "stupidity"
with better designs and safer devices and inventions...

Randal. 40.000 accidents yearly in US to me is simply:

STUPID.

Even more stupid when we know that we have the solution.
But we like to play nice and agree that we cant invent
or think of better ways.

I think, we gain the right to use "Stupid if you dont" and if someone thinks different he can prove me wrong by taking the ez challenge.

btw. nobody did. You know why?

Dino
07-20-2011, 02:10 AM
Attacking you?

I am simply saying, treat your customers like idiots, and idiots will end up being the ones who are your customers.

I feel like Dik here, it isn't wise to insult them as they won't buy from you.

Randal, this is not a marketing move to gain more customers.
This is a slogan to wake -up people from the brainwashing of the same over and over. From total mind control that the tablesaw is the first tool to have when in reality is tth emost dangerous tool and the first one to cut your hands if you make any mistake and many times even if you dont.

Wood is alive and every piece of wood reacts different.
There is no safe way to use any tablesaw.
To believe that youre sasfe operator and you have the gift...
that can only put you in the same list of many 6-7-8-9- fingers people that thought the same like you.
Even pro's with 20- 30 years using the tablesaw every day...

At this point I think the slogan is getting better and better???:rolleyes:

Bill Griggs
07-20-2011, 11:50 AM
I think, we gain the right to use "Stupid if you dont" and if someone thinks different he can prove me wrong by taking the ez challenge.

btw. nobody did. You know why?


What is the EZ challenge? I have never heard of it and I have been here for years.

Bill

Philphoto
07-20-2011, 01:53 PM
I have a 4H woodworking & woodcarving club. I teach the kids about tool safety, and how to be safe. I have instilled a healthy respect for the table saw, and to date only one boy will touch it.

Dino Said:
"To believe that youre sasfe operator and you have the gift...
that can only put you in the same list of many 6-7-8-9- fingers people that thought the same like you.
Even pro's with 20- 30 years using the tablesaw every day..."

My rules that I teach -- "I can teach you the safe way to handle poisonous snakes, but that never makes handling poisonous snakes safe. Ask any experienced snake handler. Everyone of them has been bitten, some only once, and that was the last time -- ever."

Phil

NWClark
07-20-2011, 05:52 PM
Most woodworkers I have met simply are uninformed on how SAFE and EASY it is to use the EZ system. Calling them stupid accomplishes nothing. Showing them the easier and safer way to cut wood will accomplish more than insults.

Personally, whenever I have shown any tradesman how effective the EZ system is, not one has ever argued that his old way of working was better than mine.

So, show them the light and let them become believers.

Philphoto
07-20-2011, 07:31 PM
I think the subject is getting a bit worn. Everyone is saying much the same and we still go over the same ground. Not to mention emotions a bit frayed.

Here is what Dino said:

Ok, Here is a better one. more poetic?
Now that you know...stupid if you don't? ;)

If I may illustrate and Dino please correct me if I am wrong --
Yesterday 3 hikers climbed over a barrier (fence) and past warning signs written in several languages, to get a photo, then were swept to their deaths off Yosemite Falls plunging over 300+ feet down.
I do not know what you call that -- I call the whole event STUPID!
I have come across these situations time and again. 10 years as a volunteer fireman, showed me how stupid people can really be. In my area we have a 475 ft. cliff that overlooks the ocean. There is a 24 inch barrier and signs warning people to stay back. Every year someone climbs over the 2 ft tall barrier and plunges to their death. To get a photo! Trust me the knee high barrier is in no way a hindrance to good photos. That great shot is their last. We put up signs, and stationed officers at the top, and still they go over. I can define that no other way than STUPID.

All of that said I can agree that folks will get turned off by the wording. Uninformed or ignorance is accounted for by the words "Now that you know." I suppose I am just saying that Dino does have a point -- if I have understood him correctly -- if I am in error, I apologize.

Phil

Eastwood Mike
07-20-2011, 07:47 PM
We did a safety audit of our (manufacturing) factory a few years back. The safety officer included the fitters workshop as a result. Typical fare- mills, lathes, welding bays etc.
One of the guys was working the Mill, with an end cutter attached, facing off some aluminium.

The safety officer cried out and said- Hand on! If I put my hand on that spinning part, I can hurt myself can't I?

"Yep. In fact it will probably grab your sleeve and rip your pretty hand off. "

She turned a shade of pale.

"But that is why we go to tech school for four years and do an apprenticeship before we are allowed near this stuff."

Geoff works dangerous equipment. The fact that he works equipement does not make him Stupid. Not using his head or getting in over his head is what would make him Stupid.

If I presumed to hop onto a bridgeport mill and work it the safest way I would be stupid going in over my head. I have only the vaguest idea of what the best practice is. Maybe the first day or two I might be lucky. But the odds are against me in the long run.

Of all these TS accidents each year, It would be interesting to know how many were trained and experienced and howmany were once in a blue moon/ she'll be right mate/ nah never needed a Guard before / kinda people ?

Dino
07-21-2011, 04:19 AM
guys,
after many years and after setting a simple and duable goal
to make woodworking and cutting,routing, milling safer
bringing the numbers down to zero when using the DWC and
even starting making new jigs to stop the flying parts from milling vices...

yes, last week I thought my $700.00 Kurt vice was the right tool to hold a part but the part thought otherwise...It almost remove my head from my body and solve all my pains ( from a major car acident) :rolleyes:

STUPID if I dont fix the vice to hold the part in such of way that simply
can hold the parts in place when ( Not IF) I make another simple mistake.
because I will make more than one.

So...One simple bar screwed to the vice now keeps the parts from
trying to remove my eyes, nose, ears and maybe my head???
Why working in fear and with tools wanting to harm me?
Luck is not the answer.
Be brave with power tools is total ignorance and stupidity.
Using the DWC in the vices and milling machines now is my priority.

So... confusing luck with safety is more that stupidity.
The fact that I was lucky few times and I have all my body parts intact
dont give me that right to brag and say that I'm a good operator.


The fact that a small group of people was brave and smart to find a better way going against all this:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?40360-The-best-tooling-I-ever-bought


read the very first 4 aposts from the gang of stupidity that dont allow any new ideas and thier way must be protected at any cost... Old close minded small heads with influance and power. The stupid gang.
Do you think anyone of them tried to become a safety instructor for trade schools and worked for free to held the students when the schools had no money for woodworking programs???



In all cases at other people(s) fingers.
Do you think that they care?
The only thing they have left in life is to stop anything that can lower their ways and tools....

Now that we know...Stupid if we dont try to share safety and
smart ways with our fellow woodworkers.
If we let few gangs controlling the future of woodworking and all the forums
by protecting outdated tools and ways ( Their ways) we will do a great harm to newcomers, our hobby or trade.

Keeping safety and better ways underground in order to keep the peace and some people happy is simply...

STUPID!!!! not to say anything else.
In my school they teached me one thing.
If you see a problem and you have a solution...
doing nothing about it makes you the problem.

late and I just cant keep an open mind with this anymore.

jswingchun
07-21-2011, 09:44 AM
The fact that a small group of people was brave and smart to find a better way going against all this:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?40360-The-best-tooling-I-ever-bought

read the very first 4 aposts from the gang of stupidity that dont allow any new ideas and thier way must be protected at any cost... Old close minded small heads with influance and power. The stupid gang.
Those guys apologized a page later and admitted they were wrong.

whitejacket
07-21-2011, 10:36 AM
Those guys apologized a page later and admitted they were wrong.

Yes they did apologize to Peter (and only Peter)...eventually. However that first post by Richard set things off and the damage was already done. The thing is, how many people will continue reading all 3 pages of posts after they read the first few negative posts. Richard is the one who started the negativity. Instead of just letting things be he felt he needed to post in order to keep things from getting out of hand--- yet he is the one who caused it to get out of hand. It is like news organizations who post a negative or inaccurate story (knowing that this is the case) and then later publishing a retraction. It is disingenuous and most times the damage is already done despite the later retraction (which is usually printed in an obscure location and you would have a better chance finding Waldo than finding the retraction).

With this in mind...as we make posts on any forums we need to be very careful how we phrase things. And I guess pictures are a requirement otherwise anything you say will be criticized off-hand --- that is perhaps one of the lamest and stupid forum "requirements"

Finally, to throw in my 2 cents on the whole "stupid" issue -- smart people do stupid things. I may be smart in some areas but stupid in others. Out of 10 steps I may do 9 the smart way and the 10th I do something stupid. People these days seem to think that if you call something that they did stupid then you are implying they are stupid. I don't know how this happened but it is stupid. As long as the focus is on calling a technique or outcome stupid then I don't see any problem.

Joe

Dino
07-21-2011, 11:15 AM
Those guys apologized a page later and admitted they were wrong.

yes, But the damage was done.
Hit and run and discourage others from starting something similar.
Search euekazone in any forum and you will see the results.

People are afraid to talk and share new ideas and methods if
they have to use 0ne of our tools.

Philphoto
07-21-2011, 12:10 PM
Finally, to throw in my 2 cents on the whole "stupid" issue -- smart people do stupid things. I may be smart in some areas but stupid in others. Out of 10 steps I may do 9 the smart way and the 10th I do something stupid. People these days seem to think that if you call something that they did stupid then you are implying they are stupid. I don't know how this happened but it is stupid. As long as the focus is on calling a technique or outcome stupid then I don't see any problem.
Joe

Thank you. This is very good. Of all the accidents that happen with equipment -- ALL equipment, ALL trades, ALL occupations -- the accidents happen most frequently to professionals. Pure statistical law of averages, the time of exposure, frequency of operations, will not overcome any amount of training.

I like best you observation that the person isn't stupid, it is the technique. You can make all sorts of safety provisions, and train till your blind, but it will never overcome human error. People get exhausted, distracted, confused, or breakdown, those problems can never be factored out of a tool. What EZ systems has done is change the game and switched tools and process. The EZ system recognizes that humanity has it's weakness, and the DWC adjusts for that. So thanks Joe, your post helps to focus on the issue.
Phil

Bill Griggs
07-21-2011, 12:36 PM
I want to suggest something as a possible way to focus on this topic. The best time proven method to find out what folks think/want is to ask them. You have already done this and now have several pages of answers.

My suggestion is to scan the post and count the number of people who thought STUPID IF YOU DON'T was a good slogan and also count the number of people who thought it was a bad idea. By doing this you will have an accurate representation of what your users think. What you do from there is up to you.

Bill

Dino
07-21-2011, 12:48 PM
I want to suggest something as a possible way to focus on this topic. The best time proven method to find out what folks think/want is to ask them. You have already done this and now have several pages of answers.

My suggestion is to scan the post and count the number of people who thought STUPID IF YOU DON'T was a good slogan and also count the number of people who thought it was a bad idea. By doing this you will have an accurate representation of what your users think. What you do from there is up to you.

Bill

Bill, what the members may think or what the members
think what others may think?

What do you think? Not what others may think.
maybe we can stop worrying about what others may think or don't.:rolleyes:

I believe it and I like it...I don't care if someone thinks that
my slogan is stupid. after all it is stupid.:cool:

sean9c
07-21-2011, 02:27 PM
That SMC thread was from 5 yrs/ago. Are we going to judge people today by what they did 5 yrs/ago? Didn't read that anyone was critical of the product. I don't see what's to be gained by dredging up ancient history like that.
Liked the guy's jig, would have been interesting to see the 20ft long one. He did some hoggin' cutting those slots.
About EZ's Kurt vise incident. I spent my life in machine shops, workholding is often the toughest thing to figure out.

Dino
07-21-2011, 03:49 PM
That SMC thread was from 5 yrs/ago. Are we going to judge people today by what they did 5 yrs/ago? Didn't read that anyone was critical of the product. I don't see what's to be gained by dredging up ancient history like that.
Liked the guy's jig, would have been interesting to see the 20ft long one. He did some hoggin' cutting those slots.
About EZ's Kurt vise incident. I spent my life in machine shops, workholding is often the toughest thing to figure out.

The damage was done 5 years ago.
the anti-ez trend is alive.
Sean, If you don't see it...you don't see it.
I do every day when talking to so many people and companies.
It takes a decade to have some ( not 100%) damage control
Stupid if you don't is my answer to anyone who tried so hard to destroy
my dream and a wake up call to new people that are turned off by the very same people.

How many posts do you make over the years to support something that was new and offered few good things to society?
If you did made some...good job and if you don't is your call.

I don't see you stepping into the fire and I don't ask you to do so...
I will use all examples to explain the situation and make the community know as much possible...with facts and only facts.

one or 10 years ago is the same thing to me.
damage that was done 9-11 is old history?

I have noticed your good efforts to be the ez Devil's advocate
but looks like you have noticed nothing about trying for so long to do the right thing and all the effort that we put into this concept.

This thread is not about trying to attack my thinking.
I deserve the right to think this way and use old simple facts and examples to
do what I THINK is right for me, my company, my customers and safety at large.

You can post your thoughts but don't turn them around and blame me.
If EZ and the DWC had received the credit due for all our inventions...
who knows? 100000's of kids may still be at woodshops and not looking
for trouble in the streets...

5 years ago? any idea how many schools closed the woodshops the last 5 years in part because of them?
Them: The internet gangs of stupidity.

Burt
07-21-2011, 04:12 PM
I think I can relate to a lot of what Dino is saying about the slogan. Sometimes, you talk to friends, customers, empoyeees, etc., but you just have that gut level feeling that what you are thinking is right. I've been there - done that in running my business. When you really feel it that strongly, you are usually correct even if conventional wisdom tells you other wise. I think that is where DIno is on this one.


Burt

Brian Kincaid
07-21-2011, 04:35 PM
Not a fan of the negative connotation towards the competition/alternatives. Short term win(?) long term loss. Focus on the capabilities of the superior solutions and win everyone over with innovative quality products and customer service.

More writeups like the one you posted (there are pictures in another page) could go in a 'creative solutions guide' on this forum. I probably have a few I could post.

-Brian

bigjohn1
07-21-2011, 04:56 PM
I think If thats what Dino would like to use or say is upto Dino we all can like or dislike but If you like it Dino you like it thats all there is to it.

As for me I would back up Dino and what ever Dino makes because of the way he thinks and carries on business. Dino does it for the love of his work and to help as many others as he can from what I see and does the best he can with it.
I don't say to many things about what others think good or bad anymore because it just gets me into trouble its not like I really care if what others think I say is good or bad but I think if you don't have something good to say better stay quite lol.

Every tool I have tried so far from eurekazone or Dino has worked out better and safer then I would have ever thought and we should all be grateful for someone like Dino to care and do what he does for others and the woodworking people out there cheers to you Dino and eurekazone.

I can tell you I will be first in line for any new tools that eurekazone comes out with and any others they recomend to use.

sean9c
07-21-2011, 05:04 PM
The damage was done 5 years ago.
the anti-ez trend is alive.
Sean, If you don't see it...you don't see it.
I do every day when talking to so many people and companies.
It takes a decade to have some ( not 100%) damage control
Stupid if you don't is my answer to anyone who tried so hard to destroy
my dream and a wake up call to new people that are turned off by the very same people.

How many posts do you make over the years to support something that was new and offered few good things to society?
If you did made some...good job and if you don't is your call.

I don't see you stepping into the fire and I don't ask you to do so...
I will use all examples to explain the situation and make the community know as much possible...with facts and only facts.

one or 10 years ago is the same thing to me.
damage that was done 9-11 is old history?

I have noticed your good efforts to be the ez Devil's advocate
but looks like you have noticed nothing about trying for so long to do the right thing and all the effort that we put into this concept.

This thread is not about trying to attack my thinking.
I deserve the right to think this way and use old simple facts and examples to
do what I THINK is right for me, my company, my customers and safety at large.

You can post your thoughts but don't turn them around and blame me.
If EZ and the DWC had received the credit due for all our inventions...
who knows? 100000's of kids may still be at woodshops and not looking
for trouble in the streets...

5 years ago? any idea how many schools closed the woodshops the last 5 years in part because of them?
Them: The internet gangs of stupidity.

Dino, I get your passion. For the rest of your response the logic of why you sound so pis_ed off at me is beyond me.

Mel Beck
07-21-2011, 05:57 PM
Personally it's not the right way for me to think, I know that. But I don't care about people that have been warned and ignore the warning. I do care about Eureka Zone, the more they sell, the more people get the message. So I wouldn't want anything avoidable to stop a sale. The more sales, the more users, the more people safe, the more people seeing safe, the longer Eureka Zone stays around for me, my friends, and family.

I'm a believer of survival of the Smartest. There will be some that are mislead and have accidents. I don't believe that can be avoided, even with laws (helmets, seat belts, ect. not in-favor of the laws just the use). I was racing Harleys & Cars as far back as 1960. We lost alot of STUPID racer, the ones that helmets and seat belts were Wussy. Then thing get real crazy, in the late 60 early 70s some crazy state person wanted seat belts on motorcycles.

Dino
07-21-2011, 06:10 PM
Dino, I get your passion. For the rest of your response the logic of why you sound so pis_ed off at me is beyond me.

I come to America because I believe in the freedom to think, invent and do good if you can...
Not to be told by a stupid gang that this is the wrong place...

If America is the wrong place I will do my best to make it
the right place again where dreams come through and not killed.

very simple.

sean9c
07-21-2011, 07:01 PM
I come to America because I believe in the freedom to think, invent and do good if you can...
Not to be told by a stupid gang that this is the wrong place...

If America is the wrong place I will do my best to make it
the right place again where dreams come through and not killed.

very simple.

So for some reason, I still don't understand, you've decided that I'm part of a stupid gang that's trying to tell you what to do?
I've been a supporter of EZ both with my checkbook and at other forums. When I make a post and get a rant back from you I sometimes want to just sell my EZ stuff and have nothing more to do with EZ. I like the tools and the philosophy but I'm troubled supporting a company where the attitude can be so negative.

Dino
07-21-2011, 07:08 PM
So for some reason, I still don't understand, you've decided that I'm part of a stupid gang that's trying to tell you what to do?
I've been a supporter of EZ both with my checkbook and at other forums. When I make a post and get a rant back from you I sometimes want to just sell my EZ stuff and have nothing more to do with EZ. I like the tools and the philosophy but I'm troubled supporting a company where the attitude can be so negative.

Sean, the stupid gang is the people that tried so hard to stop what you like and supporting,
some how you got the wrong message.
thanks.

Jim Pierson
07-21-2011, 07:53 PM
I don't own any of the EZ System tools -- yet. I just want to say that the EZ System is the best system I have seen and has the fairest pricing to boot!
Often times when anything new appears in the marketplace there is a premium the customer pays for the privilage of being first. This isn't true with the EZ System. What I see is a system of safe, reliable, and well made tools that will be the new adjustable wrench for woodworking. What is better is that this system rivals the results of task specific and expensive tooling. The EZ System of tools and work methods will open the door for many more basement and garage home owner workshops that can only allow for the continuation of woodworking skills learned in school.

Philphoto
07-21-2011, 09:16 PM
I was not going to post anymore on this subject but I have to now.

I just got three of my magazine subscriptions today. Woodsmith, plus my renewal gift of 120 Shop Tips, Woodcraft, and American Woodworker. I really never thought about much of this but take a look at the number of articles on the Table Saw. At least one third of the articles or information is based upon or about the table saw. The second most plentiful number of articles is on the router.

I read or skim the articles and see so many similarities I have to wonder if they have the outlines stored on their hard drives and add new photos, then finish! Quick cash! That is a speculation at best. If we took away their table saws the poor guys would not have any thing to write about. The manufacturers have all their engineering completed and can make piles of cash off some nineteenth century tooling that is a real cash cow. Yup! I suppose they do not like someone raining on their parade. So what if people get hurt -- think of all the folks that would lose money if a better, cheaper idea comes along. What will those poor out of work table saw writers do if we do not care about that stupid table saw?(that is said with sarcasm)

I have been a member of a couple of forums, plus some that are gone now. I have personally witnessed the vitriolic attacks on Dino, EurekaZone and sometimes even those that buy the product. I have seen how people have irrationally attacked Jim Lindsey the inventor of Dowelmaxx, and the Dowelmaxx product. There are other products as well. The attackers never seem to end, you just hope they are like teenagers that will eventually grow up. I really do not pretend to understand the ways or whys of these attacks, but I will say I buy anyway and maybe a little out of spite to the attackers. I have yet to understand the attackers. I do not understand why anyone would fight such good ideas. I haven't been on the front lines but I know it can be intimidating and sometimes a guy just has to fight back -- hard.

For me, agree or disagree with the slogan or any other part of the product, is not up to me and I will support any choice made. I agree with Mel. "I do care about Eureka Zone, the more they sell, the more people get the message. . . The more sales, the more users, the more people safe, the more people seeing safe, the longer Eureka Zone stays around for me, my friends, and family. "

So . . .full speed ahead.
Phil

Dino
07-21-2011, 10:06 PM
So . . .full speed ahead.
Phil

Phil, thanks to the ez-guys that I call them "My Investors"
eurekazone, ez and the DWC is safe and strong now.
Next year we will have our very own "unique and patented" power tool line.

Full speed ahead but not without helping others like us to invent without fear and share without becoming a target to the internet gangs and not only...

Full speed ahead not to allow similar wars against other(s),
small companies and new inventors.

In the long run this is more important than how many new customers we
may lose because we never did it for the numbers or profits.
I walked out from 2-3 meetings with multi Billion(s) $$$ companies when I saw what they had in mind for ez smart, new inventions and woodworking.

Now, I owe to this country and trade that give me so much
to make it better and I will.

Stupid if I dont? Or simply nca? ( nobody cares anymore?)
Why a young homeowner needs to spend thousands and thousands to simply cut a piece of wood for his house or to build something for his kids?
Why we put at risk millions of people with the same old dangerous and many times stupid ways and tools?
To keep the peace with the one's that dont care?
Who cares for them? Not me.

If anyone gets insulted from this "stupid" slogan maybe he needs to be?

Bill Griggs
07-22-2011, 12:07 AM
Bill, What do you think? Not what others may think.
maybe we can stop worrying about what others may think or don't.:rolleyes:



Dino ,

Since you asked what I think, I will tell you. If EZ was my company, I wouldn't use the slogan. EZ is not my company so you can use what ever slogan you want. I have been around for years and I will be around for many more years because EZ is the right tool for many, many jobs. That is the message I would be sending. EZ is the right tool for the job.

God bless you Dino and keep innovating.

Bill

ac1647
07-22-2011, 12:26 AM
I think everyone here wants EZ to prosper, and more than that to change minds. Clearly we disagree on how minds get changed. Are all the un-enlightened stupid? I say they aren't, just misinformed. But at this point its all semantics i'm afraid. A prophet is not without honor in his own land, as the saying goes , and if EZ is more a revolution than a business venture, then honesty is best I suppose...

JDA
07-22-2011, 12:49 AM
I think the slogan could alienate potentially new hobbyists. To me, it gives a message that many of the tools used in woodworking are "stupidly" dangerous, but it says it in an elitist way. Someone thinking about getting into woodworking might question if it's even a hobby worth taking up. They could spend a lot of money on equipment that could seriously injure them, or they could spend a lot of money on equipment from a company that thinks you're stupid if you don't use their products, or can just find a safer hobby to get into altogether.

In the end, I think the slogan sounds too aggressive. Personally, I would respond better to positive types of advertising, as others have suggested.

Philphoto
07-22-2011, 01:00 AM
EurekaZone
The only zone that is stupid free!

EZ SMART Tools
Any thing less is just . . .


Sorry guys! I get like this about an hour after my medication.

Phil

nextedge
07-22-2011, 02:41 AM
Title means intelligent person who does stupid things is still stupid.
You are what you do.

Applicable not only to woodworking but really takes new meaning when applied to this topic.


I would suggest running business ideas as to slogans and such thru Public relations experts so that a marketing company could apply concept.

They would look at the data and their own marketing experience to determine best outcome for desired results.

This really should be consulted with experts in the field.

just my 2 cents worth...


Andy M.

Eastwood Mike
07-22-2011, 03:59 AM
EurekaZone
The Only place where all members still have all 10 fingers!

Sean9c- Don't take it to heart. There are two types of criticism- acidic destructive (as seen by SMC extremists) and well intentioned constructive. Unfortunately some occasionally take everything in the one basket, and other times we also don't identify ourselves as trying to help until it is all too late. We also don't realise that by being part of a forum we are asking for all opinions - gotta take good as well as bad opinions without getting too sensitive.

Forums is a great place to mis-interpret intentions. Happens all too often.

Dino
07-22-2011, 04:23 AM
Phil, I don't try to say that eurekazone is the only way to go.
I think that you're becoming an eztremist? :rolleyes::D

stupid if you don't...is more of a safety warning.
Not just tools but methods like the "Dead wood concept"
that is becoming very popular and a good teaching tool.
----------------------------------------------

IF you spit against the wind...simply stupid??
do you push stuff against spinning blades? dangerous stupid??
-----------------------------------------------------

Dino
07-22-2011, 04:57 AM
I think everyone here wants EZ to prosper, and more than that to change minds. Clearly we disagree on how minds get changed. Are all the un-enlightened stupid? I say they aren't, just misinformed. But at this point its all semantics i'm afraid. A prophet is not without honor in his own land, as the saying goes , and if EZ is more a revolution than a business venture, then honesty is best I suppose...

this is where "they" made the biggest mistake.
they "the gangs" never believed that we simply don't care
about the same numbers...

we lost more that a $ million $ making it hard for newcomers to start with
the wrong tools. wormdrives and left bladed saws.
One more? from talking and educating our customers not to buy more tools
( our tools) to solve simple problems.
We even invent new tools to save money even if we cut into our profits
from other tools ( long and multiple tracks)

Why? because we believe that more tools ( even ours) don't solve problems.
More of the same simply stop people from using the best tool ever....
and believe me...that one made and can make more and better EZ's.

The win here is a way to simply face reality.
ignoring the staggering number of woodworking accidents is simply super stupid???

Woodworking and diy repairs are becoming huge by simple needs.
More and more saws and other tools are coming to the market every day.
Who is working to make them safe at any cost? Eurekazone.
Soon, we will have our own power tools and believe me...
stupidity ( our own) was taken into the design and because we know first hand
that "stupid if you don't" we designed ways and come up with some very unique and smart safety features and inventions.

I see nothing wrong by posting pic's of my stupitity with blood in my hands.
Accidents happen and if we think that we can avoid them 100% is simply stupid.
Doing nothing to fix the problem is super stupid.

the slogan is strong but our history is stronger.

Philphoto
07-22-2011, 06:00 AM
Dino:

Eurekazone.
Soon, we will have our own power tools and believe me...
stupidity ( our own) was taken into the design and because we know first hand that "stupid if you don't" we designed ways and come up with some very unique and smart safety features and inventions.

This is what I was saying before. Am I becoming an "EZstremist"? YUP! and totally unashamed. What you have done is take the premise that tools can not be made safe, and switched processes, using a different tool in a different way. Trying to design "stupid" out of the process. Saw Stop has tried to make the table saw safer, but still it does not address the fact that an upright blade is dangerous in more than one way. Was it a start? Yes, but not the right path. The design takes the wrong premise, and solves only partially one part of a problem. Additionally not a cheap solution at that.

EZ takes a completely different approach. Starts with the DWC which is a different concept at solving the problem. You do not ignore human stupidity, by design you count on it and by design you avoid putting the user in danger.
SO! as a play off the old 1980's "____ free zone" wording and the "zone" in EurekaZone the company name. . .

EurekaZone
The Stupid Free Zone . . . By Design!

Phil