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Dino
10-01-2009, 12:41 PM
In one day...

A festool user needs a tablesaw because his mft's and extensive collection of F-tools they cannot take the place of a tablesaw.

Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 10:56 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------H.
I need a new table saw and was seriously looking at the SS until I started doing some research on the Hammer B3 slider. You don't need a brake if you are sliding a table with the work piece clamped to it rather than moving the material itself. Hand's never get close to the blade. Just like the TS's. It appears to be a lot more accurate as well. It's a big bite cost wise but should be worth it in the long run.
.................................................. ........................

Same forum and date, same user. F
Posted a link to inform the F-Gang and send the troops in the woodnet forum.
Woodnet discussion about cutting sheetgoods
on: May 17, 2010, 02:13 PM

---------------
F. anyone want to jump in? woodnet discussion on using festool for sheet goods
------------------------------------------------------------

The new member was quick to help with three videos and wrong statements at the woodnet forum.
Like: This is new tools not made by any other manufacturer...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another festool user just bought a nice tablesaw ( oxymoron ?)
after he wasted his time and money on two mft's...

Re: MFT
Reply #21 on: Today at 07:11 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
I think you will quickly realise you need two MFTs. I went the same way. Bought TS55 with MFT and later added the second one. Unlike others here I had still some squarness problems. Tuned up the rail and after some time it was slightly off. I had to check the squarness before every batch of cutting. At the end I was so tired I have bought Hammer B3 Winner Comfort saw. Man! Why was I so fool and didn't spend the money into Hammer instead of all that MFT stuff!
If I will be in your position with my current experience I'd buy some Hammer saw (for the stuff you mentioned probably Hammer B3 winner).
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Here ( the same day) another f-user
after years of going against ez, now he admits that his system...
For my small hobby shop (and budget) the SS Contractor Saw has been great. And LOML relaxes when I'm out there working!

I find it a great addition to my Festool stuff.


Why I'm posting all the above?
I have no idea yet but I needed to talk to someone...
Why not here?

Dino
05-19-2010, 12:35 AM
Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9EoFR9UqCQ&feature=related

Any questions or concerns?

never mind the incorrect statements about the parallel guides.
I will do a comparison later but I like to see if you guys can see what I saw in the first 4 sec's.

The fact is that the track-saws are in trouble because the bad copies.
I read a post today and a festool user ( after he bought 2-mft's)
he was forced to buy a tablesaw.
why this is a problem for the ez system?
With the total control on magazines, forums, media and human nature...
(Thanks, not by 100%) who is going to give ez a second look?

If festool is not up to the task...nobody can.
Or, I be stupid to admit that I wasted money in the Festool system and I have to defend my decision...
After all, we're more that the ez users and we know how
to play the game vs ez.:rolleyes:

I will go over the post later but first I like to see if I'm going mad by seen
this video and why?

FIRST 3 SEC"S and wait to see the video edited to cover the problem.
Can anyone tape the video before editing?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Mel Beck
05-19-2010, 12:52 AM
Dino

Are you seeing the saw buck.

Mel

Burt
05-19-2010, 01:17 AM
Hey - Guys,

I need some help - I've been trying to remember the words to the Mickey Mouse Club Song!

How did that go?


Burt

Dino
05-19-2010, 01:22 AM
Mel.
#1. You can clearly see the saw jumping off the tracks.
edit to correct (not this time)
#2. Look at the bionic hands the effort to push the saw.
The plunge saws are like using a plunge router without locking the plunge lever?
#3. Having only 26"? on one side only...
you have to lift the saw off the rails, move the track with the repeaters,
move the cut-off piece, reposition the track, the saw and very soon look for a tablesaw???:rolleyes:

Burt
05-19-2010, 01:24 AM
If I didn't know this festool stuff was true, I'd have a hard time believing it.

Buying a slider because you don't like a festool!

And saying a saw stop is a good compliment to Festool.

That video does a great job of illustrating the value of the Festool. Did you notice that he was forcing the saw instead of allowing it to do the work?

Also, I couldn't believe the awkward position the guy was working in.

Above all else, that video gave me a new found respect for the tools we have developed at EZ.

Burt

Dino
05-19-2010, 01:34 AM
Hey - Guys,

I need some help - I've been trying to remember the words to the Mickey Mouse Club Song!

How did that go?


Burt

Burt, the club is the biggest ez problem and as soon Paul allow us to
post pictures of the ez-one in use...let them enjoy their decisions.

One 5 minutes video and the club is going to be silent for 100 years to come.
This is a promise. I owe it to ez and to the ez guys that they endure all this for so long.

The F-Youtube channel is moderated and any comments or concerns are deleted.

You can't even post about problems.
How many people do you think saw this?

Burt
05-19-2010, 01:45 AM
Dino,

Since Festool now owns that forum and rules with an iron fist, it really doesn't qualify as a forum. Look at the paid posters in that forum. It is more like the gospel according to Festool.

I can't believe how long it is taking those people to see light.

The Club - it is unbelievable - we've been fighting it for years and they don't seem to change.




Burt

Dino
05-19-2010, 01:46 AM
If I didn't know this festool stuff was true, I'd have a hard time believing it.

Buying a slider because you don't like a festool!

And saying a saw stop is a good compliment to Festool.

That video does a great job of illustrating the value of the Festool. Did you notice that he was forcing the saw instead of allowing it to do the work?

Also, I couldn't believe the awkward position the guy was working in.

Above all else, that video gave me a new found respect for the tools we have developed at EZ.

Burt

Burt, Here we're trying to take woodworking into the future and we have yet to see one complete cut from the festool system.
Marketing shots and fanatics.
The user on the video made a statement that the f-repeaters are very unique and only offered by festool....
In the festool forum 90% of the users are reporting problems with the mft;s.
They're adviced by the paid gang to buy 2 mft's.:rolleyes:
Then, they're forced to buy a complimantary tablesaws and giving us a bad name. I think we need to take the track saw into new heights and well crafted patents that this time they cannot copy very easy.

Dino
05-19-2010, 01:56 AM
Dino,

Since Festool now owns that forum and rules with an iron fist, it really doesn't qualify as a forum. Look at the paid posters in that forum. It is more like the gospel according to Festool.

I can't believe how long it is taking those people to see light.


Burt

I was talking about the youtube channel.
The F-forum is typical German propaganda.
The moderator is the damage control guy and some users are getting very upset.

Here, the administrator/moderator is free and clean.
He actually posting problems ( when he founds one ) and he told me long time ago: If you want me to be the administrator, I will.
Just make sure you don't try to control the forum.
If you do...I may remove your membership.

I hope he ( Dik) don"t remove both of us from this forum
for starting this thread.

Dik, When i saw the kickback in the first three sec's ...
Ok I was wrong this time about the kickback but the statements that the f-user made are wrong.
The repeaters was in a eurekazone patent application 5-6 years ago.

I can't help myself...:mad:

Burt, take it easy because you never know.
Never mind festool. Dik may not like this thread?

Bob F.
05-19-2010, 02:02 AM
Hi Dino,

The first thing that I saw was a poor example of the EZ Smart Table.

In fact, that table he used could never be compared to the Smart Table and everything it has to offer.

I remember watching you cut narrow pieces of wood with the smart clamps and a very short guide rail, and that video on You Tube made a believer out of me. In fact the video is still on You Tube under EZ Clamping System.

Bob F.

Dino
05-19-2010, 02:25 AM
Hi Dino,

The first thing that I saw was a poor example of the EZ Smart Table.

In fact, that table he used could never be compared to the Smart Table and everything it has to offer.

I remember watching you cut narrow pieces of wood with the smart clamps and a very short guide rail, and that video on You Tube made a believer out of me. In fact the video is still on You Tube under EZ Clamping System.

Bob F.

Hi Bob.
When I posted the ez repeaters in youtube, the festool gang was very upset and they posted in the festool forum that the repeaters was dangerous.:mad:
They have 7000 members and they will do anything to keep their club intact.

After copying the repeaters, they like it so much ( $$$$) that even the editors are paid to say that festool invented the repeaters. ( Not all editors)

Same with the ac-2. Before they copy another patent penting tool,
they talk about innovation.
same with the vertical self aligning tracks on the pbb.
Their tooling broke and they had to make new tooling and new design with vertical walls on the mft to clamp the wood for M&T ( routing)

The big problem is that they don't even make good copies and that the ez track saw system is getting bad reputation.
90% of their customers are going back to the tablesaw. where is the safety and the marketing promise that thir tools are a replacement for the tablesaw?
I can't believe that they advertise their track system as a tablesaw replacement and the same time they're trying to bring their tablesaws in US.

Here is the good news. I'm upset.



Tell me if I'm wrong.

Randal Stevenson
05-19-2010, 02:28 AM
Hi Dino,

The first thing that I saw was a poor example of the EZ Smart Table.

In fact, that table he used could never be compared to the Smart Table and everything it has to offer.

I remember watching you cut narrow pieces of wood with the smart clamps and a very short guide rail, and that video on You Tube made a believer out of me. In fact the video is still on You Tube under EZ Clamping System.

Bob F.

That table isn't a copy or attempt of the Smart table (or PBB, etc), but a copy of a panel cutting table.
http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/panel_cutting_table.htm

But isn't it interesting that, he prefers that, to the MFT, for his work?

Justanotherbloke
05-19-2010, 02:42 AM
Not out to defend Festool, but I don't see the kickback or bucking that people are referring to. I can see he had issues initially placing the saw on the track but that's about it. As for kickback, the saw would need to be engaged and striking something. I see neither. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Randal Stevenson
05-19-2010, 02:53 AM
Not out to defend Festool, but I don't see the kickback or bucking that people are referring to. I can see he had issues initially placing the saw on the track but that's about it. As for kickback, the saw would need to be engaged and striking something. I see neither. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

That is what I saw, other then the table.

Bob Strawn
05-19-2010, 03:48 AM
Ok, I watched the video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9EoFR9UqCQ&feature=related) The fellows worktable was pretty cool. The parallel guide and extension however looked unstable, clumsy, awkward and hard to set up. I really don't like seeing things shift around as a cut is made either. I am also far from fond of the concept of needing to make marks on the saw blade and aligning them by hand. So I looked up the guide and extension and came up with a total price of $324.

$324 seems pretty steep for what I can do with any old circular saw, eight screws, two clamps, a sheet of mdf and a stud.

With a EZ smart rail, and clamps, I would not need the mdf. With an EZ power bench this becomes a no brainer.

I seriously need to build a power bench.

Bob

Dik Harrison
05-19-2010, 08:40 AM
Dino,

I only remove users that are spammers, or that become offensive or vulgar.

Threads and post are only removed if they are spam.

Also, I have to agree, I think that the user is simply having trouble settling the saw on the rail. Never laid hands on an festool product, but since he has not pressed that awkward plunge button, the blade has not lowered, so should not be hitting anything.

Dino
05-19-2010, 10:11 AM
Dino,

I only remove users that are spammers, or that become offensive or vulgar.

Threads and post are only removed if they are spam.

Also, I have to agree, I think that the user is simply having trouble settling the saw on the rail. Never laid hands on an festool product, but since he has not pressed that awkward plunge button, the blade has not lowered, so should not be hitting anything.

Dik, You are right.
A second look and the saw wasn't even started.
thanks for the correction and good for the user.

I remember that you posted a kickback with the ez once.
The fact is that the kickback and damage is the innitiation to the F- club.
Many people try the track saws and they sell them after the very first cut
off the rails. Funny that we can't find any directions
"NOT DESIGNED OR FREE CUTS ( off the rail)

Some times even with cuts on the rail.
This is why I see a plunge saw and my mind kickback???:rolleyes:

Dino
05-19-2010, 10:17 AM
Not out to defend Festool, but I don't see the kickback or bucking that people are referring to. I can see he had issues initially placing the saw on the track but that's about it. As for kickback, the saw would need to be engaged and striking something. I see neither. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Why not defending Festool when you're correct?
You are correct and I was wrong in this one.
thanks.

Mel Beck
05-19-2010, 02:04 PM
I also agree, but only after viewing the clip frame by frame. He was just not on track.
My eyes aren't what they use-to-be nor are my glasses.

Mel

sean9c
05-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Hi
I just found this thread. You guys have all the history with Festool and a ton more experience with EZ products than I have so some (a lot) of these posts go over my head. What I saw when I first looked at the youtube video was someone not very experienced working with tools that he was not familiar with. I'm not sure who Roger is but if he's working for Festool they've not made a very good choice. That whole parallel rail and yoke thing looked like a contraption to me. I get what they were trying to make but it looks like a bunch of enginners sitting at their desks designed it without any real world input.

Dino
05-19-2010, 07:07 PM
Hi
I just found this thread. You guys have all the history with Festool and a ton more experience with EZ products than I have so some (a lot) of these posts go over my head. What I saw when I first looked at the youtube video was someone not very experienced working with tools that he was not familiar with. I'm not sure who Roger is but if he's working for Festool they've not made a very good choice. That whole parallel rail and yoke thing looked like a contraption to me. I get what they were trying to make but it looks like a bunch of enginners sitting at their desks designed it without any real world input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4VTxEGyU0Y&feature=player_embedded#!

Look at 18 to 22 sec's.
The cut is edited as always to hide the major problem.

He never found an ez way ....
For years now I'm waiting to see full cross cuts in a piece of plywood.

santiago
05-19-2010, 07:52 PM
I'm a newbie, but a few things stick out to me. My sound is broken, so bear with me.

First, the he's fighting against the plungesaw spring during the crosscut.

Second, his saw seems to be underpowered because he is moving very gingerly along the rails. Maybe because he's fighting the spring? My cheap Hitachi cuts through MDF like a hot knife through butter, especially when the EZ rail is clamped down.

Third, those parallel guides seem a little cumbersome.

And fourth, I can't image building a table like that and calling it "sacrificial". All of those right angles he used to build the top, sheesh!!. If you at closely at the inside corners he used small corner braces. Those are real simple to cut with a tablesaw set at a 45 bevel. I doubt he used the festtool to cut those. (we know he didn't use the EZ system) It wouldn't be economical to build a table like that, and use it in production work.

Burt
05-19-2010, 10:09 PM
Your eyes are working fine!


I'm a newbie, but a few things stick out to me. My sound is broken, so bear with me.

First, the he's fighting against the plungesaw spring during the crosscut. With the plunge saws you have to hold them down while you push thru the cut.

Second, his saw seems to be underpowered because he is moving very gingerly along the rails. Maybe because he's fighting the spring? My cheap Hitachi cuts through MDF like a hot knife through butter, especially when the EZ rail is clamped down. The TS 55 is low power - I believe 10 amp. Your hitachi is probably 15.

Third, those parallel guides seem a little cumbersome. Couldn't agree more

And fourth, I can't image building a table like that and calling it "sacrificial". All of those right angles he used to build the top, sheesh!!. If you at closely at the inside corners he used small corner braces. Those are real simple to cut with a tablesaw set at a 45 bevel. I doubt he used the festtool to cut those. (we know he didn't use the EZ system) It wouldn't be economical to build a table like that, and use it in production work.

Just remember that with Festool all things are possible.



Burt

Dino
05-19-2010, 10:16 PM
Imagine what you don't see.

Measure and mark one side.
Walk around and mark the other side.

Set the rail on the mark.
Go around to set the rail on the other mark.
(with the non skid tape you can't slide the rail to the mark)
For lond rip cuts you may have to go back few times?

Time to cut now.
Set the antikickback stop and start your saw.
When the saw is in full speed, plunge and go.
If you have longer rails you don't need the antikickback stop.
BUT, you have a very thin rail and you're plunghing the saw in the air.
Cut as far as you can reach...BUT you can't reach to make a 48" cross cut.
Stop and walk around the panel.
Start the saw and plunge again.
Pull the saw like you're pulling a donkey...

All this just to make a simple cut.:confused::confused:

Lift the saw from the rail because you can't slide the saw and the rails.
( the non skid tape again?)

This is only for one cut.
wait...we have more.
Add the limited capacity paralllel guides and you can only have repeat cuts for cabinet parts only under the rail.

Lift the saw.
Lift the rail with the parallel guides.
remove the cut piece.
Lift and Place the rails on the uncut piece.
Lift the saw and place it on the rails....
-------------------------------------------------

IF the rail was strong you can use the original ez-repeaters with a double extendable repeater arm up to 48" on the right side ( 48"VS 8")
and triple extendable on the left ( 60"? VS 26")

Make your cut and slide the entire system to your left.
Make your second cut and slide the system to your left.

Let me see if I can find a video.
WITHOUT EDITING.

Burt
05-19-2010, 10:28 PM
Dino,

I started to go thru and make a step by step by step list. I just don't have the patience for that.


Burt

Dino
05-19-2010, 10:52 PM
Burt,
Take a look at all EU type panel saws.
The sliding tablesaws at Youtube.
I just watched few videos with all the good stuff.
All edited to hide the excessive movement of the panels.

I have yet to see one cut from start to finish...
Looks like all the expensive panel saws are easy to use.
In reality you have to spend 3 times the ez energy.

Now you can see why all the "fights" at smc forum
by the users and agents of expensive eu machinery.

Youtube is great but you have to know what you're looking for.
I hope my chiropractor gives me the ok to lift a CS soon.:cool:

Dino
05-22-2010, 12:55 AM
Dino,

I started to go thru and make a step by step by step list. I just don't have the patience for that.


Burt

Burt,
You may like to know that the user is a festool dealer.:rolleyes:

from the fog

RDMuller
Festool Dealer

Burt
05-22-2010, 01:16 AM
Burt,
You may like to know that the user is a festool dealer.:rolleyes:

from the fog

RDMuller
Festool Dealer

Dino,

I noticed that a day or two ago. He doesn't know how to use his product very well.


Burt

Dino
05-22-2010, 11:08 AM
Dino,

I noticed that a day or two ago. He doesn't know how to use his product very well.


Burt

Wait. We have more cons here:
-------------------------------------------------------
I say let the Festool system speak for itself. They have a 30 day, no questions asked return policy.

Here's what I recommend.

1. Got to the Festool Owners Group and the Talk Festool forums and Festool USA and dealer sites. Familiarize yourself with the products and some of the people who use them.

2. When a job or group of jobs comes up where you think the Festool stuff would apply go ahead and buy the setup that you think best fits your immediate need. This is a good time because they are having a promotion right now.

Note: The dealer is important. Only give your money to a true Festool believer. Meaning he loves the stuff and he stocks the stuff. Preferably he owns and uses Festool himself. If your local dealer doesn't measure up there are a number of very good, very knowledgeable internet dealers. I have a good local dealer but I wouldn't hesitate to buy for one of these internet stores, and I have.
Note: Think about one of the Festool vacuums. Is dust collection important to you? Think hard before you answer. The idea of excellent portable dust collection is integral to the Festool system. Could it change the way you do things? You could go to a customers site on a stormy day and cut sheet goods in his lobby. I'm serious. You could cut sheet goods in a library, in an operating ro......, well, no, maybe not in an operating room. Plus you work faster with dust collection. Quite a bit faster. Trust me on this. Not needing to worry about dust when moving from cut to cut is a VERY BIG DEAL with any system. If you're going to be fair comparing a TS55 to a Martin T75 you have to give the TS55 it's vac.

3. When you get it all home spend some time on skill building using inexpensive material. Maybe build a couple of cases that you don't need to make money on.

4. Deploy it on real jobs. Try out the system. Post questions on the FOG or TalkFestool forums. Kick the tires.

5. On the evening of the 29th day decide whether you will keep it or take it back.

What I'm suggesting is a serious investment of time and that's not be taken lightly. However, it pales compared to the investment that you would make on any high end stationary panel processing solution. You're going to have to invest some time even on the less expensive lower end options that are not extensible.

Having used the stuff you will be in a position to look beyond the immediate need, simply breaking down sheet goods, toward some bigger ideas. Namely, is the Festool system approach something you want to consider implementing in your business model?

Festool is developing the notion of doing shop quality cabinetry constructed start to finish on site. This idea is not always profitable, not always practical and not always advisable. But it may be practical, advisable and profitable in many circumstances. And if it is then nothing but a system like Festool will do. It's portable, light weight, accurate, safe, clean and for my money, enjoyable to use.

Let me know if you want more. I can go on and on but I don't want to waste your time.
------------------------------------------------------------------


I bet eurekazone that this guy works at the marketing dept.:eek:
The name sounds familiar.:rolleyes:

Mike Goetzke
05-22-2010, 11:15 AM
I usually don't even bother talking about the green stuff but it's strange how a guy at WN asked a question about a track saw system and someone at the FOG posted a thread basically soliciting FOG members to steer the WN guy straight:confused:.

Dino
05-22-2010, 12:15 PM
I usually don't even bother talking about the green stuff but it's strange how a guy at WN asked a question about a track saw system and someone at the FOG posted a thread basically soliciting FOG members to steer the WN guy straight:confused:.

Nothing but a gang of cons.:mad:
Today, you can make money by been a paid troll.
We had few companies trying to get our OK to do the same.
Increase the traffic at the forum with fake and paid posters.
The Fed. Trade commissioners are working very hard to put a stop in this new wave of con artists.

Mike, You don't know who is on the other side of the screen and while we're trying to make something, they make money from stopping us because we don't like to follow the new trend.


https://www.myinternetcashtactics.com/c/GHD73H9D9IAK0/Default.aspx?itm=R00003&s1=109572&s2=V-1&s3=&clickid=05_87663537_8bb122cc-476f-46cc-9ae4-73cd15c699fd&vn=000109828

staceyw
05-22-2010, 12:29 PM
https://www.myinternetcashtactics.co...d&vn=000109828

Is that the actual deal where these people come from or just an example?
I always wondered what scam those work from home things actually did.

"Make a good product, get it out in front of people and truth finds a way."
-- Me 5/22/2010

Dino
05-22-2010, 02:23 PM
https://www.myinternetcashtactics.co...d&vn=000109828

Is that the actual deal where these people come from or just an example?
I always wondered what scam those work from home things actually did.

"Make a good product, get it out in front of people and truth finds a way."
-- Me 5/22/2010

This is he new way to make money.
Post links and some times lies and you get 10%
per lie and click?:confused:

Dino
05-22-2010, 03:35 PM
I usually don't even bother talking about the green stuff but it's strange how a guy at WN asked a question about a track saw system and someone at the FOG posted a thread basically soliciting FOG members to steer the WN guy straight:confused:.

Mike,
They have to support their investment.
Imagine if many festool users start posting in all forum about their problems?
They only post problems in the fOG and when they do they get attacked by the moderator.
Every time someone has a problem aligning the festool tracks,
---we see f-posts like:

-- I never had a problem aligning the rails...( that they're designed not to align to force the users into buying the long rails at premium price because the long rails solve a "created" problem.)

But they don't

Buy the long rails and get done with it. If you don't like to spend more money, clamp a level next to it.

But..

What else do you want? wait for the new mft-3 to come out.

But...I bought 2 and now I'm buying a tablesaw.

Good for you. We like to wait for the festool tablesaw to include it in our signature...

Wow...why I don't think of that?????

btw, at the woodnet forum they talk about track saws. Let's go there and protect our investment.


If they don't they can't be members of the club and the F-club has it's price.
If you own a eurekazone tool and you post in any forum you may get one or two replies.
If you are a club member you get 100.
The very first replies come from paid moderators.
They know how to set the tone.

I call it Festool terrorism and if they don't like it, they have to stop it.
I send few e-mails to festool company and I informed them about my stand to their ILLEGAL marketing terrorism.
But, what you except from a criminal company?
Do you think that I will call someone or any company "cons and criminals without having strong proof?

The same way they tried to stop eurekazone, the same way I will inform the pubic about the F-con artists.

If they don't like it, they can take me to court.
But they don't want to do that because they know better.

The old guy posting in woodnet and festool forum is in violation of federal law.
F-shano Is the internet marketing director for festool????
another violator of good business practices and ethics.
Read his post again.


back to the video.
A very smart editor from core 77 was here today to test the ez-one.
I left him and I told him to be very critical with his testing.
This way we can make it better.
He shake his head few times.:rolleyes: