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danblu
09-12-2012, 06:25 PM
Hi folks, I'm Pete living in NZ and into furniture making and design, yachts , motorbikes and happy women. Just got my 108" kit and a mitre square and a router thingo.
I tried the track yesterday and am having troubles. Weird thing happening, saw is Hitachi 7 1/4 which I attached to the base, now it cuts sort of square for 1/2 , the bottom half of the cut but the top half is off towards the track !!
Has anyone had similar and point me in the right direction?
thanks
Pete.

Mark Davisson
09-12-2012, 06:37 PM
Pete, there are guys who will come on here with years more experience with EZ than me, and they will, no doubt, provide some good direction for you. But can I ask you to explain what you mean by "bottom" and "top" relating to the cut?

Mark

Dik Harrison
09-12-2012, 06:44 PM
Pete,

Is this sort of what you have? Exaggerated of course.
4887

danblu
09-12-2012, 07:26 PM
Hi Dik, Mark,
Yes thats the sort of thing thats happening. I'll have a better idea today as only got the system together last night late.

danblu
09-13-2012, 08:08 PM
I set the saw up a bit better and thats fixed the problem of half the cut being out of square. Amazing how much this hitachi base is out of alignment with the blade. Still not happy with the cut though, not perfectly straight and chipping both sides of the cut. I've ordered a new blade, this is the 7.5" hitachi actually, not the 7.25" so of curse one has to order an hitachi blade. I'll see how it goes today!:)

danblu
09-13-2012, 10:13 PM
I'm getting nowhere near straight cuts! The saw base has about 1mm of play on the track which, when cutting two pieces of laminated customwood, gives a gap of 2mm in places! Thats not nowhere near good enough for my needs I'm afraid.

bigjohn1
09-13-2012, 10:26 PM
Dan, Not sure you are having problem or what it is from the saw or the base.
We all use the base and get straight cuts so maybe it you saw and how its setup if not from the factory.
I don't own a hitachie saw but I do have there router and love it works fine.
Other here use the saw and its working fine.

I don't think you need to buy a blade thats just for the saw its not a green tool lol. I'm thinking any blade would do even then Dino has made good cuts with very old blades.

So my thinking is that your setup needs to be looked at.

One of the hard things to do as a newbie is getting things right and feeling you got it now and that will come if you don't give up.

Most TS you buy don't cut that well also and yes a good blade may help but its not the big problem most of the time trust me I don't spend mutch on blades. You also need to make sure your ac on the track and ac2 on the base are setup the right way also.

bigjohn1
09-13-2012, 10:32 PM
Hi folks, I'm Pete living in NZ and into furniture making and design, yachts , motorbikes and happy women. Just got my 108" kit and a mitre square and a router thingo.
I tried the track yesterday and am having troubles. Weird thing happening, saw is Hitachi 7 1/4 which I attached to the base, now it cuts sort of square for 1/2 , the bottom half of the cut but the top half is off towards the track !!
Has anyone had similar and point me in the right direction?
thanks
Pete.

Pete, My first and second saw setup went like this after I got it right things are good. When you use the track and combo you need to make sure the track stays square clamp in place if you need to shot cuts should be ok but when you get to a long cut with laminate I'm sure that will be a pain.

toollovingschultz
09-14-2012, 12:17 AM
Hi Dik, Mark,
Yes thats the sort of thing thats happening. I'll have a better idea today as only got the system together last night late.

Dan i had some similiar problems with my first saw. It was a combination of a bad saw poor technique and bad base allignment i learned to not push down too hard on the handle when I was cutting. I straightened my base and found a saw that is stable and works for me. I almost gave up on the ez system but once you work the bugs out everything falls into place. I know Dino reccomends a thin kerf blade for most things but for a good straight line rip a blade with a heavy plate works well.
Andy

Philphoto
09-14-2012, 12:50 AM
Danblu:
Look at your anti chip insert. I had a problem with mine lifting the saw up a bit, and that little bit introduced a bit of wobble or drift.

For your first cuts, I would make sure the farthest track end is secured with smart clamps, or some other way. Just to make sure you have track movement eliminated from the mix of possible problems. When I first started, I did not have the anti slip tapes, and Dik told me about them. They made a big difference on holding my track in line. The down side is that the track will not nudge very easy when you need it to.

First I would clamp and cut. Make sure the saw is not lifting on the AC and then if it is; sand it down a bit until it stops lifting. No need to make a cut on this test. Then clamp and cut and see where you are. Also remember that you can seem absolutely dead on square close to the lead end of the cut with the miter square, and one half a degree off at 8 feet away is 2mm or more. I triangulated the square the first time and leave it there. The extrusion tracks are dead on so I do not worry about the leaving the entire track together, just the first section and miter square handle.

Not sure what sort of cuts you are making, but Dino made the point that sheet goods factory edges are not always square, and clean. It will not take a lot (debris or out of square edge) to throw a cut off with any tool, not just tracks. Those are the places I would look.

Phil

danblu
09-14-2012, 02:26 AM
I've checked the blade to channel measurement and is very good.
I'm not using the inserts as Dino suggested I take it off.
I've got two stools with a 54" track resting each end on them. I have the clamps installed and I'm cutting 18 mm customwood with a laminate both sides. Just using offcuts that are about 3 feet long by 6". I'm cutting about 1" off the edge, do that to two edges and place together and the joint is crap. I was hoping to do cabinetry with this but think I'm seriously mistaken!

bigjohn1
09-14-2012, 02:42 AM
I've checked the blade to channel measurement and is very good.
I'm not using the inserts as Dino suggested I take it off.
I've got two stools with a 54" track resting each end on them. I have the clamps installed and I'm cutting 18 mm customwood with a laminate both sides. Just using offcuts that are about 3 feet long by 6". I'm cutting about 1" off the edge, do that to two edges and place together and the joint is crap. I was hoping to do cabinetry with this but think I'm seriously mistaken!

Not sure what the best thing to do would be another cabinate guy maybe can help. Having laminate on both side I would say needs to be held down well from both side if not I'm sure the cut would be crap know matter what you use to cut with.

I'm sure the cut you want can be done once you have things right.

I think between two stools may not be enought support for laminate

Philphoto
09-14-2012, 04:11 AM
"I was hoping to do cabinetry with this but think I'm seriously mistaken! "


No you are not. Burt used the EZ tools and track professionally to build cabinets. There are several photos of the cabinets the other members have made with their EZ tracks. I have built upper shelving and cabinets and furniture in my wife's shop and store. I know this product works spot on. I also know that you can go through a great deal of frustration if things are not working as smooth as our dreams hope they will. Been there many times!


Do not lose heart, keep at it and keep eliminating possibilities. Like I said before clamp the far end, you may want to clamp both ends to make a test cut. If both ends are secure, and the cut is bad the problem is in the base. IF the base is on properly, then the problem may be in the connection of the saw to the saw plate. The key to trouble shooting anything is eliminate variables as much as possible. Then step by step go backwards to where you discover a problem.

Also -- you are approaching the craft in a whole new way --safely, and with precise processes. Most of the things are different, from a table saw, but worth it. Building with track saw is so much easier and safer than a table saw it make the process worth the journey getting there. With track you can work onsite, not easy to do with an 800 lb cabinet saw.

That all stated. You say you are cutting laminate. Is this what we call melamine (both sides ) and particle compression board in between the melamine on the outside? That stuff chips like crazy and the blade will affect that product and chipping. The blade will not affect the drift off plumb -- unless it is seriously dull and you are forcing it through the product. Also laminate or melamine needs a good carbide blade as it will dull a normal blade very quick. I work with baltic birch or apply ply for that reason. I can not handle that heavy melamine stuff with one arm. The out of square cuts are easy to isolate. Are the cuts off in any sort of consistent way? As in everyone is 2mm to the right at the end of the cut, or is it all over the place? Is it always at the end of the cut or either end? Do you make a measurement and mark at both ends as a check? Are you using the same tape for each check? Exactly how are you checking the way it is out of square?

Phil

danblu
09-14-2012, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the encouragement and advice guys. I checked the alignment, got a battery for my vernier:), and its within 0.05mm or 1 thou so thats not the problem.
I'm starting to suspect the saw is not strong enough and is wobbly above its base. Which the cure for is another saw. This hitachi is near impossible to set up accurately for square so a mitre is out of the question. It does not have a grub screw to set the base to square. Also the base dosn't fit this saw base very well.
The reason I'm using the meltica is because it gives a really critical result when cut. any problems are immediately obvious. Also I have a few offcuts lying about!
Might have to get a new saw but nervous to do so because unclear if its going to resolve this problem.

Dik Harrison
09-14-2012, 09:28 AM
What does the cut look like with the saw off of the base?

bigjohn1
09-14-2012, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the encouragement and advice guys. I checked the alignment, got a battery for my vernier:), and its within 0.05mm or 1 thou so thats not the problem.
I'm starting to suspect the saw is not strong enough and is wobbly above its base. Which the cure for is another saw. This hitachi is near impossible to set up accurately for square so a mitre is out of the question. It does not have a grub screw to set the base to square. Also the base dosn't fit this saw base very well.
The reason I'm using the meltica is because it gives a really critical result when cut. any problems are immediately obvious. Also I have a few offcuts lying about!
Might have to get a new saw but nervous to do so because unclear if its going to resolve this problem.

There are other bases you can use talk with Dino,Unless the saw has deffects should work.

sean9c
09-14-2012, 03:02 PM
I've checked the blade to channel measurement and is very good.
I'm not using the inserts as Dino suggested I take it off.
I've got two stools with a 54" track resting each end on them. I have the clamps installed and I'm cutting 18 mm customwood with a laminate both sides. Just using offcuts that are about 3 feet long by 6". I'm cutting about 1" off the edge, do that to two edges and place together and the joint is crap. I was hoping to do cabinetry with this but think I'm seriously mistaken!

You say when you put the cut edges together the joint is crap. What does that mean? I'm assuming you mean the edges aren't tight together.How far out are they? What are your expectations?
It's a pretty basic system there's not a lot to go wrong.
It sounds like you've eliminated most of the variables, about all that's left are a bent track which is highly unlikely but you could sight down it or put a straight edges against it to check.
I'm assuming you have the standard EZ Base, the slot in the base is a little larger than the lug on the track so the base does wiggle around a little. I measured my base and track and the slot in the base is about .4mm wider than the lug. All the bases are molded so they should all be about the same.
The big variable is how parallel your saw is to the slot in the base. Double check that and make sure it's good.
Other than those things about the only thing I can think of is make sure you have a good blade in your saw. If the blade is toast it may be flexing during the cut giving you the symptoms you describe.
Lastly just put the saw on the base and watch it when it's cutting. What's moving or flexing? I think just watching it cut will tell you a lot.
Good luck, let us know what you figure out

Dik Harrison
09-14-2012, 04:23 PM
Danblu,

There is nothing that know of that is inherent to the system that would cause that type of problem. As I see it, there are several possibilities:



The blade is not parallel to the track - with the saw unplugged and the blade fully down make accurate measurements between the dado in the base and a tooth at the front and then the same tooth at the back of the blade.
The blade is warping - During the cut, does the sound of the saw/blade change? Could you be trying to cut too fast, not enough power to push it through the wood at the rate you are cutting? Is it a thin kerf blade? They can give problems with vibration. I have seen a similar problem with a thin kerf blade. The lower part of the cut (the bad part) had tooth marks. Does yours?
Your technique needs improvement - Pay close attention to the saw when you cut. Are you causing it to rock to one side or the other, or changing the direction of your pressure on the saw handle?

danblu
09-14-2012, 09:09 PM
Dik. I,m not a complete novice. I make furniture at a very high level, guitars and dulcimers. What tecnique are you talking about? As I see it you push the saw along the track and it should give a straight edge, but it does not do so. It gives a very crooked edge. Now I expected this system to give me an edge straight enough to simply put glue on and clamp. The results I'm getting nowhere near approach this ideal. The problem may not be the track system, may indeed be the saw but it would be good to know if it is the saw because I'm not going any further with this until its sorted.
The saw is aligned to within 0.05mm! That ort to be good enough.
What I suspect is the saw not being rigid enough but I see Dino offers these hitachi saws already set up so I wonder.
Do you guys get an edge good enough to glue up?
I've attached a photo of a Tallboy I recently finished just to give you an idea that I'm not some sort of cro magnon beast with a chainsaw.:)

bigjohn1
09-14-2012, 09:21 PM
Dan you may need to slow your cut and see the out come of it.
I really think its your support used and your speed of cut.

The system does work not sure about that laminate that I hate in any case.

Not sure I would call anything made from that Hi end.

Not sure why Dino would say take out the ac2 or insert unless he thought it was not flush to the cut.

Stick with it and you will find out what it is as I said the system works you may need to change on how you do it. I'm sure any track would have the same results setup the way you have it over two stools.

John

Dik Harrison
09-15-2012, 03:17 PM
Dan,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was not referring to woodworking techniques or skills. Let me try to explain a little better.

The EZ track guarantees that the cut will be straight, but the squareness and quality are effected by numerous factors. I've been a woodworker for most of my life, but I noticed that when I started using EZ that if I wasn't careful with how I held the saw during the cut, that I could cause the cut to be out of square even though the saw blade was square to the base and thus the track and wood. This was due to the slop in the saw, not EZ.

Feeding the blade into the wood too fast can also cause the blade to vibrate/warp, causing tooth marks, especially on the bottom of the cut. Thin kerf blades can also do the same thing, especially when they are dull.

You may be correct in thinking that the problem lies in the saw. I would suggest clamping the saw base firmly to a table or work bench, and see how much wiggle you experience when you try to move the handle from side to side. You can cause the saw to move the same way when cutting if your technique is lacking steadiness.

Since your cut is only off over part of the vertical face, I still think that the fault is in the blade, not the saw. Slightly tipping the saw would result in an uneven cut along cut, not down the face. Since your blade is parallel to the track, I would try changing the blade to see if there is any change in the cut.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

Philphoto
09-15-2012, 06:03 PM
Danblu:
I was looking at my set up and I have three saw bases and one is on my Bosch C20. The EZ base is very awkward to attach to the C20 saw base. One size fits all just doesn't in all cases. What I noticed was the C20 saw was always having a problem making straight cuts. I looked at the C20 again and noticed that when I attached the EZ base, that I had torqued the EZ saw base out of flatness so it rocked more than it should. I have changed the EZ saw plate and no rocking at all. The misshapen EZ saw base (that I had damaged during attaching) will rock even without the C20 saw affixed. I Would suggest looking at the EZ base. You may have some torque that makes the saw sit catty-wampus to the flatness required for the saw and track. Since my base was affixed for a few years, I can not correct it, but yours might need some relaxing and it will be fine. Just a thought about where else you might look.

Phil

sean9c
09-15-2012, 06:36 PM
Dan
You've yet to explain in quantifiable terms what exactly the problem is. I'll describe a condition that I get when cutting to see if it sounds like what you get. I've described it on the forum before, some tell me I'm being to picky. If I put 2 edges, say 48" long, that I've cut using EZ together. The edges at the ends will touch but there will be about .1-.2mm gap between the edges in the middle. I'm using the standard EZ Smart Base and I attribute it to the slop between the slot in the Base and the width of the lug on the track. I've thought about switching to the Moduni Base so I could adjust it to take out that slop but quite frankly I don't do anything that requires a more perfect edge, so it's just an annoyance.
Hope you figure out the problem and let us know

danblu
09-15-2012, 07:53 PM
Yes SeaunC , thats the sort of result I'm getting and its not good enough. I really do expect much better. I'll check the flatness of the base on monday Philphoto, thanks for your suggestions. I may have to glue a piece of paper to the groove in the base to take some of the slack out and see if it improves the cut.
I'm finding the hitachi 7.5" saw to be pretty awkward to use also, its height adjustment is way basic and the angle adjustment is also basic. It does not have a grub screw to adjust the square cut stop which means it takes a long time to set up correctly. The hole is there for the grub screw but it has not been tapped. The base is pretty easy to flex which may be why I'm having a hard time getting a good result. As mentioned I've put a new blade on and it is cutting better but still not good enough.
Hey I see some are wondering how to locat the rail to an accurate mark without the edge plastic fitted. If you cut a piece of ply to fit between the rail and the saw cut you have it beat.

danblu
09-15-2012, 08:11 PM
No offence taken Dik, I appreciate your helpful suggestions. Which is the best saw to use with the system?
Initially the saw was ascew on the base a little, with the blade just deep enouth to cut through any deviation from parallel will give an out of square cut, with a gap at the top when the square is placed at the bottom of the board. Don't mean to hurt your head here Dik.:) I've re set the saw very accurately and it is better.
I may have to set up the router with an up cut spiral bit to get the edge I need.
I'm wanting to get into making free standing wardrobes in ply. Using the old trick of mitre cutting and then taping with masking tape the two pieces then a line of glue and then fold up to 90 degrees. I'd like to make the drawers and the cabinets in this fashion so need real accuracy. I plan to use a 45 degree router cutter , the track and router base. I see I may have to cut oversize and bring it down to size with the router.

Philphoto
09-15-2012, 08:28 PM
This is what Rick has made to use for locating the kerf. There are two sets of photos down the page a bit. Under "Bumpnstump"

http://tracksawforum.com/showthread.php?p=24592#post24592

Phil

toollovingschultz
09-15-2012, 09:55 PM
No offence taken Dik, I appreciate your helpful suggestions. Which is the best saw to use with the system?
Initially the saw was ascew on the base a little, with the blade just deep enouth to cut through any deviation from parallel will give an out of square cut, with a gap at the top when the square is placed at the bottom of the board. Don't mean to hurt your head here Dik.:) I've re set the saw very accurately and it is better.
I may have to set up the router with an up cut spiral bit to get the edge I need.
I'm wanting to get into making free standing wardrobes in ply. Using the old trick of mitre cutting and then taping with masking tape the two pieces then a line of glue and then fold up to 90 degrees. I'd like to make the drawers and the cabinets in this fashion so need real accuracy. I plan to use a 45 degree router cutter , the track and router base. I see I may have to cut oversize and bring it down to size with the router.

Dan I rip ply sheets for closetr systems and cabinet work all the time and get very percise cuts. The folded bevel si a hard cut I usually buy edge banding and apply it with a iron.

As far as the best saw Burt has a real nice hilti wsc267 e but that saw is no longer available in the u.s. I have found a hitachi c7bmr is a real accurate saw and a real good blade helps also. http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-C7BMR-15-Amp-Circular-Technology/dp/B000Q7V12S/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1347753270&sr=1-1&keywords=hitachi+c7bmr
Andy

sean9c
09-15-2012, 11:30 PM
Dan I rip ply sheets for closetr systems and cabinet work all the time and get very percise cuts. The folded bevel si a hard cut I usually buy edge banding and apply it with a iron.

As far as the best saw Burt has a real nice hilti wsc267 e but that saw is no longer available in the u.s. I have found a hitachi c7bmr is a real accurate saw and a real good blade helps also. http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-C7BMR-15-Amp-Circular-Technology/dp/B000Q7V12S/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1347753270&sr=1-1&keywords=hitachi+c7bmr
Andy

Wow, did that saw ever get cheap. $85 with a brake

Burt
09-16-2012, 12:13 AM
Wow, did that saw ever get cheap. $85 with a brake

Shipping makes it $100. Still cheap

Philphoto
09-16-2012, 01:25 AM
I have been trying to replicate some of the moves you might be making. Dik made one point about pushing the saw through. I noticed that I had one habit that I need to take into account and might be part of your problem.

I start my cut on the track -- nicely centered and my body is the same in relationship to the saw, track, wood. I noticed that as the rip progressed down the board, my stance changed -- thus my angle on the saw and the cut. Check yourself, this might be a bigger issue than you think. I know that when I got the EZ system, I thought the only thing I had to do was push the saw and the track would do everything else. True to a point. If I was building a wall or construction in general I would not have to think about those things as much. In cabinetry you have to watch your cuts and your square. In my opinion the EZ tools remove much of the human element of error. If I get dust in my face during a cut, I will not veer off an inch or two. I have a bad arm from cancer surgery, and the track lets me perform precise cuts without my bad arm being a factor.

I think once you work through these issues you will love the EZ tools like we do. There is a bit of a learning curve. Without film or videos we have a hard time deciphering exactly what the problem is. We are trying to help.

Phil

bigjohn1
09-16-2012, 02:22 AM
Shipping makes it $100. Still cheap

I agree if it were not for an EZ saw soon would look for this one here amazone would send this to canada.

danblu
09-16-2012, 09:34 PM
I think I need a different base. the base that came with the track does not fit my saw well as I cannot get a screw into it behind the blade. Problem comes from the saw base has not a flat area to put a screw that I can align with the ez base. I'll have to get a moduni base.
Ordered the moduni base today. I'm not that impressed with the standard base. I'm finding I need to have the sawblade to base angle not square to get a square cut and I don't understand why. I took one screw off the base to saw base attachment which may have been twisting the setup a bit, not sure but it is better now though not spot on.
I am managing to get a decent cut now but don't think the plastic edge can be used to define the cut, as advertised. I'll have to use another method, shouldn't be too hard.