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  #11  
Old 03-26-2013, 11:23 AM
tmpullen tmpullen is offline
 
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Default Saw blades

Rick,

I went through a paradigm shift years ago when it comes to saw blades. I tried every cheap blade I could find and went through the same thought process you did. Is it the saw? Is it the track? Something wrong with my setup? No, it was the blade. I was trying to cut bread with a butter knife! When it comes to quality cuts in fussy material like melamine or veneered plywood I rely on Forrest HI-ATB blades. If you do this for a living and need sharp tooling at a moments notice then you may need two, one for the saw one for the sharpeners. If this is a hobby one blade will do just fine. Never use them for every day cutting, only for the task for which they were designed. One of these blades used this way will easily give you 10 kitchens worth of cabinets over it's lifetime. If it is your hobby one blade will probably last a life time.

I have been curious about the Tenryu blades now because of your review I will give them a try.

Thanks!
Terry
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  #12  
Old 03-31-2013, 04:27 PM
will will is offline
 
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rick,
what would be considered the rolex saw currently?
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  #13  
Old 03-31-2013, 05:32 PM
bumpnstump bumpnstump is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Woody View Post
Rick, this is very interesting.

However, you've said twice "PT is overkill for saws than can be used on the EZ tracks"

Can you explain?
Overkill HOW?
Where would it NOT be overkill? Roofing? Building decks? (that makes no sense)

And what exactly made it so great?

Also, most of us have a very good idea of how various tablesaw blades compare, for precision work. Is there some reason why those "ratings" would change when using a circ saw & track?

-thanks

Hi, Big Woody, thanks for the questions.

Not sure I can give an adequate answer, but I'll give it a shot.

re. 'overkill': for me, it came down to acceptable cut vs cost of blade. Tenryu won in my experiment. A different blade might win in your experiment; that's great- I'd love to hear about it.

re. what makes it so great: again, quality of cut, combined with cost of blade made it 'great' for me. When you run your own blade performance experiment, you might find another blade is 'great' for you- please post the results; we'd all benefit from it.

re. blade "ratings": I honestly don't know what the answer is; I guess if you wanted to apply some sort of "ratings" to saw blades, that would be fine.

Hopefully, I've answered your questions? My saw blade experiment/analysis was just that: "my" analysis. I'm guessing that others might get different results. My post ended with the caveat:
this is all conjecture and personal opinion
I am aware that what I experience/think/etc is only me- others will have different results.
Thanks,
Rick
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2013, 05:38 PM
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Philphoto Philphoto is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Woody View Post
Rick, this is very interesting.

However, you've said twice "PT is overkill for saws than can be used on the EZ tracks"

Can you explain?
Overkill HOW?
Where would it NOT be overkill? Roofing? Building decks? (that makes no sense)

And what exactly made it so great?

Also, most of us have a very good idea of how various tablesaw blades compare, for precision work. Is there some reason why those "ratings" would change when using a circ saw & track?

-thanks
I am not Rick but I will attempt an answer. Judging from the photos, Rick has the Popular Tools Professional series blade. As a dealer for Popular tools I can tell you that Tenryu and Popular Tools are almost the same in their Industrial line. I can say the blades that you buy from Woodcraft, Rockler or other woodworking stores do not have the Industrial lines level of quality. Popular Tools are supposed to be sold only through sharpening services or companies that sell sharpening supplies.
The Popular Tools Professional Series 7.25" 24 tooth retails for $8.50 and is almost the exact duplicate of the Irwin Marathon, the Popular Tools Professional Series 7.25" 40 tooth retails for $17. and is almost the exact duplicate of the Freud Diablo (without the paint).
The Industrial line of Popular Tools 7.25" is a whole different matter. Most of the Industrial line has C-4 or C-11 carbide. The 7.25" 40 tooth retails for $73. and the 7.25" 60 tooth retails for $82. I have both and I do not need the EZ AC-2 or the white strips on my track. I get glass smooth cuts in maple veneer 3/4" plywood or baltic birch 3/4". The Industrial line is a full kerf like the Tenryu or Woodworker series. The PT Industrial has much tougher carbide like the Tenryu. You will a vastly superior cut if you have the right bevel, higher tooth count, and larger carbide, which translates to much longer use from the blade per sharpening. Heat is the biggest factor for dulling a blade. Most blades reach 900 degrees where the blade meets the wood and dissipates immediately after leaving the material. The larger carbide the less heat damage. As a consequence the reason some have been disappointed with the resharpened blades is due to less carbide on the tip. That is not to say that a bad resharpening was not performed, just that if everything on bevel and grind is the same the carbide size does play an active part.

Knowing the work Rick has shown us on the forum it is not surprising that he was not sure the extra money would be worth it or whether the Tenryu or Popular tools is over kill. His comment makes perfect sense. The guy that is a framer, roofer, or remodels will not need the higher level of quality of the Tenryu or Popular Tools Industrial type blades that person will be fine with the Professional Series. The cabinet maker, furniture builder, finish carpenter will appreciate and value the higher quality Industrial blade. Also the plant that has a saw set up running around the clock cutting a series of parts needs the higher value of an Industrial blade.

The table saw does not have any degree of accuracy over the track. Convenience? I am sure that the table saw is much greater convenience. Not accuracy. Accuracy is a time and priority matter, not capability. The EZ track is in my opinion every bit as capable of accuracy that the table saw is, just fast on some cuts and slower on others. Bevel cuts with EZ can be done just as accurate as the table saw , but will require a greater amount of time, thought and attention to the work at hand.

I hope that answers your question.

A bit of background -- The supporters here at EZ are a patient lot. We have been through abuses galore. Including planted trouble makers and industrial spies. If you are not getting the answers you request, their is possibly a good reason. I ask every forum member to review their questions carefully. You may not be intending to come across as challenging or caustic, but that is quite possibly what is happening. You may have a genuine interest in learning and the members here are more than willing to share, but none are looking for a fight or argument. Please try to soften all questions, and you may get more help. No one wants to step in on a dog fight -- they might get bitten. If we are honest -- who wants to return a phone call to a person that is angry and looking for someone to take it out on? If you are not getting the returned phone calls there might be a reason -- look at the written questions or ranting.

Please remember that everything here on this forum is given in the spirit of friendship, and sharing.

Phil
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  #15  
Old 03-31-2013, 05:48 PM
bumpnstump bumpnstump is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will View Post
rick,
what would be considered the rolex saw currently?
Hi, will,
Seeing as I only have limited experience in the 'saw-world', I honestly don't have a clue if there is one out there; perhaps the available plunge saws?. (I haven't used them, so I don't know.) After making my own smart base; and using some loctite on the front pivot, I'm happy with my Makita 8 1/4" saw. Cuts consistently, I'm used to it's ergonomics, etc.
I think a 'rolex' saw might have better shaft bearings; less/no slop in the depth setting or pivot areas; flawless beveling ability; saw base that doesn't flex/twist; adjustable handle/trigger; stuff like that.
My other saws I use on the EZ tracks are ok, but not stellar: DeWalt SawCat (used mainly for cutting Hardi, or, rough cuts that don't have to look too clean); Ridgid Fuego (a great little 6 1/2" corded saw that I've adapted for the EZ tracks. Cuts nice, but I cannot get the blade to quit wobbling enough to not leave saw marks. I thought about changing the bearings to see if that helps, but haven't done so yet. My guess is that it has to do with the thinness of the metal used for the 6 1/2" blade ; Hilti 267e (worst handle position in the world (for me)- great otherwise. The slot in the base that runs in the track isn't in the optimum position for the EZ tracks, so I don't use it much there. I've adapted a homemade UEG to my Hilti.)
So, I really don't know.
Rick
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  #16  
Old 03-31-2013, 07:41 PM
will will is offline
 
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rick,
I have been kicking around the idea of the makita 81/4. The biggest reason is for the depth of cut. I have a hitachi i got ez ready and actually other than depth of cut the saw is solid. When not using tracks i use the new makita w/o the electric brake. I would be seriously interested if that rolex saw exists.
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2013, 09:40 PM
bigjohn1 bigjohn1 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philphoto View Post
I am not Rick but I will attempt an answer. Judging from the photos, Rick has the Popular Tools Professional series blade. As a dealer for Popular tools I can tell you that Tenryu and Popular Tools are almost the same in their Industrial line. I can say the blades that you buy from Woodcraft, Rockler or other woodworking stores do not have the Industrial lines level of quality. Popular Tools are supposed to be sold only through sharpening services or companies that sell sharpening supplies.
The Popular Tools Professional Series 7.25" 24 tooth retails for $8.50 and is almost the exact duplicate of the Irwin Marathon, the Popular Tools Professional Series 7.25" 40 tooth retails for $17. and is almost the exact duplicate of the Freud Diablo (without the paint).
The Industrial line of Popular Tools 7.25" is a whole different matter. Most of the Industrial line has C-4 or C-11 carbide. The 7.25" 40 tooth retails for $73. and the 7.25" 60 tooth retails for $82. I have both and I do not need the EZ AC-2 or the white strips on my track. I get glass smooth cuts in maple veneer 3/4" plywood or baltic birch 3/4". The Industrial line is a full kerf like the Tenryu or Woodworker series. The PT Industrial has much tougher carbide like the Tenryu. You will a vastly superior cut if you have the right bevel, higher tooth count, and larger carbide, which translates to much longer use from the blade per sharpening. Heat is the biggest factor for dulling a blade. Most blades reach 900 degrees where the blade meets the wood and dissipates immediately after leaving the material. The larger carbide the less heat damage. As a consequence the reason some have been disappointed with the resharpened blades is due to less carbide on the tip. That is not to say that a bad resharpening was not performed, just that if everything on bevel and grind is the same the carbide size does play an active part.

Knowing the work Rick has shown us on the forum it is not surprising that he was not sure the extra money would be worth it or whether the Tenryu or Popular tools is over kill. His comment makes perfect sense. The guy that is a framer, roofer, or remodels will not need the higher level of quality of the Tenryu or Popular Tools Industrial type blades that person will be fine with the Professional Series. The cabinet maker, furniture builder, finish carpenter will appreciate and value the higher quality Industrial blade. Also the plant that has a saw set up running around the clock cutting a series of parts needs the higher value of an Industrial blade.

The table saw does not have any degree of accuracy over the track. Convenience? I am sure that the table saw is much greater convenience. Not accuracy. Accuracy is a time and priority matter, not capability. The EZ track is in my opinion every bit as capable of accuracy that the table saw is, just fast on some cuts and slower on others. Bevel cuts with EZ can be done just as accurate as the table saw , but will require a greater amount of time, thought and attention to the work at hand.

I hope that answers your question.

A bit of background -- The supporters here at EZ are a patient lot. We have been through abuses galore. Including planted trouble makers and industrial spies. If you are not getting the answers you request, their is possibly a good reason. I ask every forum member to review their questions carefully. You may not be intending to come across as challenging or caustic, but that is quite possibly what is happening. You may have a genuine interest in learning and the members here are more than willing to share, but none are looking for a fight or argument. Please try to soften all questions, and you may get more help. No one wants to step in on a dog fight -- they might get bitten. If we are honest -- who wants to return a phone call to a person that is angry and looking for someone to take it out on? If you are not getting the returned phone calls there might be a reason -- look at the written questions or ranting.

Please remember that everything here on this forum is given in the spirit of friendship, and sharing.

Phil
Good info Phil I can see for sure better sharper blades should give you a better cut just like in the food business better knife better cut and balance. If I were a kitchen builder and could get 10 kitchens from a blade that had a fare price paid for this would be fine with me. Paying 80.00 or more I'm not sure about if I would do that. But if it saved you time and money why not. So far for me 10 dollar blades work fine. Of coarse for hard wood you should use the best blade you can afford. Not sure whats best for that cheap melamine crap that they make builders waste there talents with. Even a plywood veneer should work better then that stuff hate it. But that's just me.

I'm sure with some of the craftsman here they can do a good job with what ever they have on hand what do they say the tool don't make the craftsman. like a gulf swing if its good its good a better club will add a few yards.
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Last edited by bigjohn1; 03-31-2013 at 09:42 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-31-2013, 10:27 PM
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Philphoto Philphoto is offline
 
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Big Woody;29711
Thanks, Phil.

If I a interpreting your info correctly, then I think the basic problem is that Rick simply expressed himself wrong when he wrote "PT is overkill for saws than can be used on the EZ tracks." I tend to take things literally, so naturally that needed clarification. - As in, what saws CANNOT be used on the EZ tracks?

No -- The minute you handle an Industrial blade you will know the difference immediately. The carbide that is 3 to 4 times larger than the mass market blade is the first thing that you notice. The notations of bevel and face angle -- sharpening information engraved on the blade. the thickness of the blank and more. All add up to a power house of a blade THAT is why it seemed like over kill. If you are cutting 2 X 4's for framing or building a nice deck it is over kill. You can do with the 40 tooth Diablo and get a nice enough cut to satisfy the customer. If you are building a set of kitchen cabinets or a nice dining table -- a Tenryu or Popular Tools (high quality blade) is the blade to use. The work I see Rick doing is good quality remodeling and some nice cabinet work. That is why Rick has a variety of blades. Sometimes he needs "overkill" and sometimes not. BTW: Rick seems to find a way to use EZ no matter what the project.

Maybe he meant "PT is overkill for the average tracksaw user."

No. I am of the opinion -- and it is just my opinion -- that because we are doing work that is normally performed on the table saw with a high quality blade, I believe track saw users benefit from a better blade. The very minimum that the track saw user gets from a high quality blade is the blade is removed from the mix when you have a problem. Sometimes problem solving is knowing what to avoid or remove.

Regardless, I am still interested in what would be the absolute best c-saw blade, for any given task. I am hoping to sell my tablesaw, and even though I use shooting boards, I'm still interested in getting the smoothest and most accurate cuts possible from my EZ rig.

If I am interpreting your information correctly, the main advantage of the PT blades is that they have extra & possibly better quality (C-4 & C-11) carbide, which keeps the heat down. Correct? A side-benefit might be that they stay sharp longer, but that would be less of a concern to me. So if this is the case, the ultimate question becomes, at a cutting depth of 3" and at the typical "feed" rate used with tracksaws, and assuming one is cutting the most burn or chatter-prone material typically encountered with this type of work, would the extra heat-dissipation of the expensive blade be significant?

Wow! What I huge bite you have taken!
Heat -- Yes heat dulls the blade but it can change the quality of cut, and the reliability of the cut line. Staying sharp longer is an issue whether you think so or not. Every blade change can change the cut line and the overall performance of your cut and the joint. Yes it matters. Heat is also a problem of material you are cutting. MDF, particle board, Melamine or other phenolic plywood will heat up faster and affect the quality of cut which is the direct relationship of the joint you wish to make. The manufactured building materials are higher in abrasion, and chemicals, and those will build heat. They will also affect the joint and inhibit the penetration of glues. If you have to sand a joint after the cut that adds more potential for bad fit and joint failure. Also moisture content. Moisture can drop a cut zone temperature by as much as 70 deg. but the drop is not a good thing by itself. Moisture in wood will eventually leave and then you can have joint failure and various board dimension changes.
So again the heat dissipation is not the "big " issue and not the little issue. Everything adds up together.

Do not get too side tracked on heat. The bevel of the blade is more important to the quality of cut and you need different bevels for different types of material. Cutting Melamine for cabinet work the bevel of choice is a HATB (High Alternating Tooth Bevel) with about a 30deg. bevel on the top it will give a cleaner cut on Melamine. If you are cutting Melamine, MDF, Particle Board, Phenolic Ply AND plywood you would be best served with a Triple Chip Bevel. If you are cutting only ply and dimension lumber an ATB (Alternating Tooth Bevel) is the better choice. I hope you can see that the different types of materials have a big effect on the type of blade you need or use. Then after ALL of that you have to decide how important all of that much perfection is to you. Some will see the powers of diminishing returns and buy cheap and others will demand perfection at any cost, then all points in between. Ultimately your budget will balance with your goals and you will make your choice.

ALSO:
Rick mentioned that the blade thickness is also different. Given that even a top c-saw has a less accurate / robust arbor than a good TS, would a thicker blade affect (positively or negatively) the accuracy of the 90 degree cut?

I am of the opinion that thicker is better. Even in a table saw I have used a blade stabilizer. The larger the diameter of the blade the more stability needed. A thicker blade is more stable, I use a 7.25", 40 or 60 tooth Industrial and they are .079 plate and .110 kerf. Where as the Irwin Marathon is .051 plate and .087 kerf. BTW: I have as of yet to find an Irwin Marathon that was not as much as .012 out of round and the rakers are supposed to be .010 to .012 below the tooth, but you can have as much as .012 between the height of all the teeth. Which means some teeth are doing all the work and going dull faster while the rakers are not clearing the chips. If you are framing or cutting wet lumber you will not notice a big difference. Woodworking or cabinet work -- you will notice.

I assume a thicker blade would generate more heat, which would fall into the "negative" category, yes?

No. Thicker will run cooler. Heat is an energy constantly moving, the more conduction material you have for the heat the longer it will take to get "hot", and we are not talking sustained heat.The distance between the exit of the board and the entrance of the board is the place where the blade will cool some. Again more surface more cooling.

I hope this answers your questions-- I also hope this is not an exercise to just waste time or test my knowledge.

Phil
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Last edited by Philphoto; 04-01-2013 at 01:01 PM. Reason: typo
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  #19  
Old 03-31-2013, 10:44 PM
Glenn Glenn is offline
 
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Phil, whatever the reason, I find your answer very very informative. Thank You
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  #20  
Old 03-31-2013, 11:09 PM
bumpnstump bumpnstump is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Philphoto View Post
Big Woody;29711
Thanks, Phil.

If I a interpreting your info correctly, then I think the basic problem is that Rick simply expressed himself wrong when he wrote "PT is overkill for saws than can be used on the EZ tracks." I tend to take things literally, so naturally that needed clarification. - As in, what saws CANNOT be used on the EZ tracks?

No -- The minute you handle an Industrial blade you will know the difference immediately. .....

.....I hope this answers your questions-- I also hope this is not an exercise to just waste time or test my knowledge.

Phil
Phil, totally awesome post- I learned stuff I didn't know I even needed to know!! Thanks for taking the time to put all of that info down in such reader-friendly form.... nice.
Rick
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