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  #11  
Old 10-08-2015, 04:50 PM
Dino Dino is offline
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Originally Posted by sean9c View Post
For me the biggest hassle with a Square is getting it to be exactly 90D. I think the biggest advance would be having a square that you could remove and then refit and have confidence that it would still be 90D. You won't get that if you are relying on connectors in the bottom slots of the track to locate the square. They don't repeat that accurately. Like Tracedfar I'd wondered if you could make something that attached or at least indexed off the unused side of the track. I think you'd stand a much better chance of getting repeatability.
Sean,
that can be done with a track that can be cnc to receive the square.
even few more common angles.
next in the list.

Our connectors are the best possible/available.
Even if the drill bit is not super accurate...that can do some damage.
removing the connectors = removing one possible problem.



tx
d
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eurekazone.

Last edited by Dino; 10-08-2015 at 07:06 PM.
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  #12  
Old 10-09-2015, 09:16 AM
tomp913 tomp913 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean9c View Post
For me the biggest hassle with a Square is getting it to be exactly 90D. I think the biggest advance would be having a square that you could remove and then refit and have confidence that it would still be 90D. You won't get that if you are relying on connectors in the bottom slots of the track to locate the square. They don't repeat that accurately. Like Tracedfar I'd wondered if you could make something that attached or at least indexed off the unused side of the track. I think you'd stand a much better chance of getting repeatability.
A little off the subject, but I've spent some time trying to make a mini-version of the Cabinet Square - http://www.tracksawforum.com/showthread.php?t=4585 - without a whole lot of success. I'm now on version 3 of my original idea and have come to the conclusion that the UHMW sliding block in the track edge groove isn't rigid enough and am looking at aluminum - unfortunately this means I have to sweet-talk a friend who has a milling machine. I came up with another idea that's closer to the Cabinet Maker - permanently fix a piece of connector in the ACE side groove on the bottom of the track that has a tapped hole for the pivot bolt. Fix a piece of connector at the end of a piece of T-track and bore (accurately) a hole for the body of a shoulder bolt. Permanently fit a strip in the left hand hand edge groove - this will have detent notches in the outer edge (think Incra miter gauge). The final part is a sliding block that fits inside the T-track that has a nose to engage the notches in the edge strip. The sliding block would be locked in place with a knob that presses on the inside bottom of the T-track. To set up for an angle, loosen the sliding block, pivot the T-track on the shoulder bolt until you get to the required angle, slide the block back until it engages in the detent slot and tighten the knob. Sitting at the computer typing, but have a sketch out in the shop that I'll clean up and scan later.

I like this idea better than my original as it seems less "Mickey Mouse". You would need a piece of track long enough to cover the max width of part you needed to cross-cut/miter. Put the fixed block on the u/s of the ACE side of the track and screw down from the top of the track to lock in the location. The detent strip on the other side would start off loose and with only the one "notch" for 90. Adjust the T-track until it's exactly perpendicular to the track and pin the detent strip in place in the edge groove. I'm stuck now on how to add additional detent slots for the other angles, thinking some kind of fixture that sits on the sliding block and lets me notch the edge of the strip.

Just had a thought pop into my head and rattle around a little. I'd have to lay it out to see if there's enough room, but I had the idea that the detent strip in the edge could be separate blocks if there's enough room - make up a handful of blocks with the notch in them and milled to file in the edge groove. Adjust the T-track to the required angle relative to the track and pin the block to the track - repeat as needed for the common (45, 30 and 22-1/2) - the question would be whether there would be enough room for multiple blocks spaced along the edge. With CNC (don't I wish) and a way to accurately measure/machine the parts, you could probably go with the original idea and machine multiple notches in the edge strip - but it would be easy enough to make a bunch of blocks. Might look a little Rube Goldberg though.................

Last edited by tomp913; 10-09-2015 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Another thought
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2015, 12:34 PM
tomp913 tomp913 is offline
 
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And then I had this idea for an even simpler design. Think of an aluminum semi-circle with the straight edge machined to fit in the edge of the track. Stay with the fixed block in the ACE side groove on the bottom track, the pivot bolt and T-track from the previous post. Now we need a fixed block in the free end of the T-track, located somewhat inside the arc of the semi-circle. This block would have a hole reamed through it that would be used to drill/ream a mating hole in the semi-circle. Start with an undrilled part, accurately align the T-track to the track at 90 and drill from the bottom of the track thorough the existing hole in the block and through the semi-circle - you now have a fixed location for 90. Repeat as need for common angles, both plus and minus from the original 90. Use a hitch pin of the appropriate size to lock the T-track for use. You're obviously limited by how many holes you can drill along the arc, but you could probably handle an odd/intermediate angle by clamping across the top of the semi-circle to the bottom of the T-track - you just have to be careful not to bump the assembly as there's probably a limit to how hard you can clamp.

If I was going into production, short of having NC equipment to accurately locate the holes in the track, T-track and semi-circle, I'd make a piece of tooling to duplicate the block in the T-track but make it out of hardened material so you don't slop out the hole drilling the semi-circle. After drilling the holes, remove the tooling, install the final block, lock it in place with the hitch pin and pin it to the T-track. The other option would be to make these blocks from hardened material from the start - just thinking that it would be easier to produce quantity in aluminum.

Another idea to consider............
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  #14  
Old 10-09-2015, 01:03 PM
sean9c sean9c is offline
 
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I think the key and first step to all the talk of Squares and protractors is a secure, accurate, repeatable, foolproof method of attaching it to the saw track. Until you have that nothing else matters. If I was designing an attachment, and I should just shut up and do it, I'd index it off the unused side of the saw track with a camlock tightening thing that picked up one of the slots in the track bottom that when tightened would pull the Square tight to the track edge. I think you'd also have to have a way to fine tune the angle setting for initial setup.
After you had that the easiest thing to do, if you wanted a protractor, is integrate the Incra or something like it. It'd take a lot of precision machining to make your own.
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  #15  
Old 10-09-2015, 01:24 PM
tomp913 tomp913 is offline
 
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Both of my concepts use the groove in the unused edge of the track, the part - either the notched strip or the drilled semi-circle - would be machined for a tight sliding fit in this groove. For either concept, I was thinking that the parts would be permanently pinned to the track as they don't interfere with the normal function, the pivot block would be the problem - but that could be worked around by drilling and coumtersinking through the top of the track into the pivot block for flat head screws so that it could be removed if needed. I was thinking though that this would be a 24" or so length of track so it would be just as well to leave everything assembled and just dedicate this to short cut-offs per the original idea - a quick and easy assembly that could be used to cut off parts without breaking down an EZ1 set-up, but accurate enough to make cabinet quality cuts.

There's only a limited number of options for attaching things to the track, and the edge groove seems to be the best option - look at some of the ideas that Rick (Bump'nStump) has posted - you certainly can't have anything under the track forward of the pivoting arm, in the same manner as the Cabinet Square.
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  #16  
Old 10-09-2015, 01:30 PM
Tracedfar Tracedfar is offline
 
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Tomp913,

Your idea for an aluminum piece sliding into the ACE channel is exactly what I thought would be ideal. A band saw, drill press and decent tap and dye set is all that is needed to make a working prototype, although a cnc would nice, especially for production run.

First, I'm going to try M5 t-nuts and thumb screws to attach my INCRA gauge to the ACE channel. I'll only need to extend the slots on the gauge about a .25" lower so that it will lie flat on the table with the guide rail.

Then, I'll modify the miter bar (basically reverse it so the long end runs out the opposite direction and away from the cut line) to be used as the fence.

Essentially, the fence and miter bar reverse roles - the fence is fixed against the guide rail via the ACE channel with t-nuts, and thumb screws (or aaaa tapped block insert) and the miter bar adjusts to the desired angle and becomes the fence to hold your material against.
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  #17  
Old 10-09-2015, 02:17 PM
tomp913 tomp913 is offline
 
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Starting with an Incra would certainly be a good way to go, not sure I'd want to start modifying it too much - although you can probably buy a replacement part if you wanted to change it back. As far as the miter bar, why would you need that? A piece of connector "fixed" in the T-track and tapped for the Incra pivot bolt would seem to be the way to go - tap holes for setscrews at either end of the connector piece and a hole for the Incra pivot bolt in the center, pick the point where the pivot needs to be so the T-track clears the saw blade and tighten the setscrews down to push the connector tight to the groove in the T-track (you could come up with a better, permanent method if the concept works out).

The miter gauge would certainly cover all the needs, my original thought was something relatively simple to duplicate the competition and provide a way to quickly cut a part to length.
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  #18  
Old 10-09-2015, 02:47 PM
bumpnstump bumpnstump is offline
 
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Great creative stuff going on here..... nice!!

A while back, I took some time to venture into 'EZ square territory- round 2'. Here are some of my discoveries.

Pics show a simple, EZ track, side-groove mounted piece of 1/2" Baltic ply. Slot on the outside is for moving the knob/handle for best positioning relative to the angle and material being cut. Inner groove is for the secondary clamp, to keep the 'arm' secure. Pic three shows the backside- the small knob under the track, into the connector, is bushed, to eliminate slop; the connector is fastened w/an allen nut, to keep it in place when the knob is loosened.

In pics one and two, the black-framed triangle is a quick-index for setting up 45˚ and 90˚. I haven't permanently mounted it yet, but you get the idea.

Overall, a nice, usable square, out to ~36".

I originally started all of this with the intent of doing the side-indexing for angle-setting that is being discussed in these posts. I'd been inspired by the Mafell track/square set-up and figured the concept could be adapted. I never fully thought thru details for these squares, and it's no great loss: I don't do square-related work often, and these squares set to any angle fairly quickly using my large framing square.
Rick
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  #19  
Old 10-09-2015, 02:52 PM
bumpnstump bumpnstump is offline
 
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First two pics show variations on using the slewing ring adapted squares to adjust angles. The large 'spoke'd' affair on the 4' square doubles as a clamp and a handle. Because the slewing ring can be adjusted separately than the spoke'd affair, you can set it up for some bodacious angles. Also, the 3-knob clamping helps tremendously with maintaining the angle that is set. This is my 4' square.

The smaller version in the pics is good for ~24"- the sliding handle affair in the side slot makes it controllable.


The next two pics are of my 'mini-speed square'. I made it one day, just goofing around, but it works so well, I use it often. Perfect for cutting material up to 12".
Rick
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  #20  
Old 10-09-2015, 02:55 PM
bumpnstump bumpnstump is offline
 
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The next four pics are of a concept prototype I started on, then got distracted. Notice the three pieces of wood are ~the same width as EZ track. The concept was to cut up some track to make the three pieces, or, use EZ T-track w/raised connector in the middle wood.

I wanted to be able to 'slide' the pieces along one another to allow them to set angles. Looking at the pics, you can see a rt./lt./straight set-up. The concept works well; I just don't have the time to pursue it.

Rick
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