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  #21  
Old 02-07-2018, 03:35 PM
Absinthe Absinthe is offline
 
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From what I can tell, you can pay someone around $1000-1500 to have an extrusion die made. Then you pay for the extrusions by the pound run. So if you were already a company doing such things, knocking off another extruded shape is almost at poundage cost. If there is a utility patent on a specific extrusion shape then there may be some protections, but otherwise there is little reason for them not to put it out there. I assumed because of the small turnback shape (I thought intended to self square things) there might be some patent. But so far no reply to that question, and nothing found in searching what I could find in the patent databases.
That leaves the question of whether it is a superior shape compared to the other ones out there. There has to be something going for it if someone wants to duplicate it. Just thinking out loud.
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  #22  
Old 02-07-2018, 06:08 PM
Dino Dino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
From what I can tell, you can pay someone around $1000-1500 to have an extrusion die made. Then you pay for the extrusions by the pound run. So if you were already a company doing such things, knocking off another extruded shape is almost at poundage cost. If there is a utility patent on a specific extrusion shape then there may be some protections, but otherwise there is little reason for them not to put it out there. I assumed because of the small turnback shape (I thought intended to self square things) there might be some patent. But so far no reply to that question, and nothing found in searching what I could find in the patent databases.
That leaves the question of whether it is a superior shape compared to the other ones out there. There has to be something going for it if someone wants to duplicate it. Just thinking out loud.
Guys,
The main thing was to make woodworking safe.

Now we can do just about anything we need
without using outdated methods and tools.
The EZ story-is good for a history book now.
Imagine working with a nice tean 3 years to come up with:
a system that is not explored yet ...even after 20 years.
Actually, the very first ez system was even better
than the one that now use.

We had few patents granted and few more applied but
what good is a patent where an entire army of tablesaw generals,
book authors and woodworking editors are against you because you
challenge their way and their bottom line....their pockets.

Or, going through the longest toolwar ever VS a team of people where
one day they say who needs this garbage and the next year they promote the very same garbage as the best invention in tracksaws?
Same function in different colors...AC-2, repeaters, vertical clamping tables,
ez glide base and very soon...more to come.

to talk about tools you have to know people better.
If someone spends 2-3-4K for whatever tool they like only to see that is something better for less...is a natural human reaction to attack.
Others don't care about colors. they will buy a knock off
if they find one for less without thinking about the impact of their transaction.

Here we have a system that one way or another is copied by all.
in a free forum with 5000 registered members asking, condenmim or supporting original designs VS copies VS whatever....
This is good. Prices will come down and more people will avoid an ER visit.

About ez and the future...I already posted that ez is ready and strong enough to make the next move. With a big delay in order to keep the promise of backwards comparability. Imagine spending 4K only to see that your EZ tool collection is non any longer supported or comparable to the next ez trend?

Imagine spending 20K for a diy shop with all bright colored tools only to
find out that you need more room to park more tools because the task at hand demands more capacity, more versatility and more space?

No. i don't worry about the Chinese copy cats.
They waited long enough to avoid any patent issues.
The EU and US copy cats are the nasty one's.
not only they find ways to around but they engage others to go against ez.

How and what ez can do?
Now that the market is "track saw ready" and flooded with tracks..
thanks to your loyalty and support...
we will combine ALL in one and with many NEW features and innovations.
Not Just tracksaws.
Tablesaws, routing tables, planers, mitersaws and more tools
will enjoy EZ.

tx
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eurekazone.

Last edited by Dino; 02-07-2018 at 06:13 PM.
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  #23  
Old 02-07-2018, 06:20 PM
tofu tofu is offline
 
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Location: nyc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
From what I can tell, you can pay someone around $1000-1500 to have an extrusion die made. Then you pay for the extrusions by the pound run. So if you were already a company doing such things, knocking off another extruded shape is almost at poundage cost. If there is a utility patent on a specific extrusion shape then there may be some protections, but otherwise there is little reason for them not to put it out there. I assumed because of the small turnback shape (I thought intended to self square things) there might be some patent. But so far no reply to that question, and nothing found in searching what I could find in the patent databases.
That leaves the question of whether it is a superior shape compared to the other ones out there. There has to be something going for it if someone wants to duplicate it. Just thinking out loud.

I always thought it would be nice if EZ made a cheaper euro-style track. We already established that a floppy track doesn't detract from the cut since it lays flat on the wood anyway.

A thinner track would be cheaper and lighter. And also have the added benefit of not taking away a full half inch of cut capacity.

I've actually been heavily considering going with f-tool for the saw and track. Or f-tool track with a makita saw. I have the hilti wsc-267e, but it's a monster and doesn't have a chip guard for both sides of the cut like the festool does.
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  #24  
Old 02-07-2018, 10:30 PM
Absinthe Absinthe is offline
 
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Posts: 268
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I haven't thought of that quite so much as going back to the Masonite and MDF concept track. Though, perhaps something with a rail, maybe leverage the ez saw base. Or come up with a base of my own to replace the brittle breaking one, and the warpy twisty one. FWIW, I love the concept, and the guide rails are pretty awesome, but the base is not ready for prime time. And definitely not priced at a point were I could replace when needed and afford to put one on each of my saws. Some of my saws would more than double in cost if I put an EZ Base on it Still considering the SSRK though, but I have some misgivings even at the current price deal
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  #25  
Old 02-08-2018, 02:45 AM
sean9c sean9c is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,232
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Man, I've read the same complaints from EZ for years and the same promises for years. What I do know is that there's been no development of existing EZ tools for years. There have been no new EZ tools in years. Any momentum EZ once had is gone. It's just the same talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino View Post
Guys,
The main thing was to make woodworking safe.

Now we can do just about anything we need
without using outdated methods and tools.
The EZ story-is good for a history book now.
Imagine working with a nice tean 3 years to come up with:
a system that is not explored yet ...even after 20 years.
Actually, the very first ez system was even better
than the one that now use.

We had few patents granted and few more applied but
what good is a patent where an entire army of tablesaw generals,
book authors and woodworking editors are against you because you
challenge their way and their bottom line....their pockets.

Or, going through the longest toolwar ever VS a team of people where
one day they say who needs this garbage and the next year they promote the very same garbage as the best invention in tracksaws?
Same function in different colors...AC-2, repeaters, vertical clamping tables,
ez glide base and very soon...more to come.

to talk about tools you have to know people better.
If someone spends 2-3-4K for whatever tool they like only to see that is something better for less...is a natural human reaction to attack.
Others don't care about colors. they will buy a knock off
if they find one for less without thinking about the impact of their transaction.

Here we have a system that one way or another is copied by all.
in a free forum with 5000 registered members asking, condenmim or supporting original designs VS copies VS whatever....
This is good. Prices will come down and more people will avoid an ER visit.

About ez and the future...I already posted that ez is ready and strong enough to make the next move. With a big delay in order to keep the promise of backwards comparability. Imagine spending 4K only to see that your EZ tool collection is non any longer supported or comparable to the next ez trend?

Imagine spending 20K for a diy shop with all bright colored tools only to
find out that you need more room to park more tools because the task at hand demands more capacity, more versatility and more space?

No. i don't worry about the Chinese copy cats.
They waited long enough to avoid any patent issues.
The EU and US copy cats are the nasty one's.
not only they find ways to around but they engage others to go against ez.

How and what ez can do?
Now that the market is "track saw ready" and flooded with tracks..
thanks to your loyalty and support...
we will combine ALL in one and with many NEW features and innovations.
Not Just tracksaws.
Tablesaws, routing tables, planers, mitersaws and more tools
will enjoy EZ.

tx
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  #26  
Old 02-08-2018, 04:36 PM
Absinthe Absinthe is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 268
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If that is the case, which would be sad, then perhaps I should get out before I go too far down the rabbit hole?
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2018, 05:53 PM
tomp913 tomp913 is offline
 
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Posts: 243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean9c View Post
Man, I've read the same complaints from EZ for years and the same promises for years. What I do know is that there's been no development of existing EZ tools for years. There have been no new EZ tools in years. Any momentum EZ once had is gone. It's just the same talk.
I don't know about that, I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the upgrade for the UEG - i.e. the new molded brackets - which I hope is going to eliminate the problem of the frame going out of square if it gets bumped.

Stopped working on it, hoping to get back to it soon - but I had the idea that the orange handle would be more user-friendly (at least for me) if it was moveable and could be moved closer to the saw when making wider rips. I reset the saw on the base to get the required 3" groove-to- blade dimension so that I could use the fin but haven't had a chance to really test whether the fin helped. I don't have a problem on narrow rips, but then I don't normally make narrow rips with it - normally rip the sheet in half (23-1/4 - 24" depending on frame or frameless) or 12"+/- for upper cabinets, narrow rips are easier (for me) on the TS. I had the idea that having the orange handle 5 - 6" inside the reference edge of the sheet is going to be more user-friendly (for me at least) and allow me to pull on the handle (towards the saw) and keep the fence tight to the edge of the plywood. I'm finishing up a project now - at least to the finishing stage (no pun intended) - so will be picking up more plywood soon and hope to be able to test my theory. The photos show the latest concept; the handle needing to go on the arms before the saw/base are mounted which I can't see as a problem.
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2018, 06:27 PM
philb philb is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 153
Default A matter of perspective and choice

If that is the case, which would be sad, then perhaps I should get out before I go too far down the rabbit hole?

A valid question but not the big picture.

I have been with EurekaZone since 2006. Right before leaving another forum. In my personal NON company opinion -- yes a long time has elapsed. Still a a lot has happened. The "deadwood concept" was developed. The cabinetmaker, repeaters, the squaring handle, then The Rip Sizer went through a few versions, to become the UEG. The EZ1 and its altered versions came about. During that time the EZ saw was discussed, designed and set aside, for probably good reason. The clamping table, new clamps, The Journeyman and some other changes. For several years members were complaining about product availability. So investors were sought and a supply chain was being developed through big box type stores (like Lowes) and serious amateurs type stores (like Rockler, and Woodcraft). Many complaints about unprofessional assembling and operating instructions prompted additional staff to develop professional instructional materials. Then complaints were made about customer service, staff was added for that, then the store was not working right, so changes were made in that area and not for the better most often. A new management team was brought on board along with various development changes.

I am not sure where the company is at this point, but some of the changes were good and some not. I have been involved with four different products and companies during this time. Be assured, the EZ group is doing better than most. This is one of the hardest businesses to build in today's market. Lest we forget that the building and woodworking industry went through their greatest economic challenge since 1930's. EZ survived while a boatload of others did not. EZ even grew with two shops and marketing changes. Do we have an EZ Saw yet? No! but that is a small item compared to the other product lines and solutions.

What you will hear is that someones personal hopes and wishes not filled because they want the one thing that is important to themselves. Not a bad evil sort of thing, I only care about things that matter to me. None the less, that is not fair to say that nothing ever happens, and discouraging other members from continuing. It was not anyone's intention to cause trouble, Or discouragement (in your case) I am sure of that. Still it happens. Do not give up. However if you are waiting for that saw --- well that might be a bit. I take joy in the fact that I am one of the unknown and unheralded developers of the future. Maybe? I will never know. Still I give it my best shot. Who knows what lies ahead.
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  #29  
Old 02-08-2018, 08:16 PM
Absinthe Absinthe is offline
 
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Posts: 268
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Hey Phillip, I kind of hate to even have some of these conversations because it quickly sounds like bashing the company. I have no intention of bashing EZ or Dino or any of the folks here or the products.

I do have some complaints, but I have come to expect a certain level of "quality" and "dependability" from things made from plastic and the EZ base is one of those things that has let me down. Being the very thing upon which the system depends the most that kind of hurts. At a $50 price point for an injection molded piece of plastic it is a hard pill to swallow to simply toss it and get another one.

As for the track itself, I am not sure if the price is good or bad, I just know it is high enough that I don't feel comfortable "experimenting" with it. For me the #1 greatest feature is the ability to square it. I know I beat a dead horse when I say it but I was so impressed when I saw Dino self square a fence to the track, then flip it and do it again without using a square or anything, and with a pencil both ways came out dead on square. That actually made my decision to buy the cabinet maker. Good thing the company doesn't offer money back, or I would have returned everything, when I was not able to do that with the cabinet maker. I am not sure what the difference between what Dino showed in the video and what actually made it into the cabinet maker, but that was a huge mistake. Making cabinets I have a most important need to make square cuts, I have yet to ever have to make an arbitrary angled cut on a cabinet panel. Though it can be an impressive thing to do for a video, but I see no reason for it making a cabinet. Being able to set that fence dead, balls on, no questions, no bullshit. SQUARE without thinking about it, or using a tool for anything other than a sanity double check should be the standard and default order of business on this thing. I honestly believe that 2 precision drilled holes in the track would be sufficient to hold a pair of registration pins to guarantee square. and 4 would give you the same ability to make both 45° angles if one were so inclined. If one were so inclined an interesting matrix of them could make for all kind of angles. But I digress. I would be afraid to start cutting holes in my one and only track, which is just barely the right size for the largest cut I need to make.

I am not exactly sure why some index holes couldn't be put in the track, not unlike FT's lr32 system. I would think putting them in the center rail itself rather than either side wings. The ability to quickly index the router on the track is the one missing feature that could make it indispensable. I understand it can be repeatably indexed doing a leapfrogging with stops. The tweakiness of that would not be an acceptable trade off for the accuracy. The whole x-y-z sounds like an awesome feature. I am just not sure how clunky it feels. I considering simply integrating my incra-jig or incra gauge and accomplish such things. I have to reserve judgment on SSRK for the time being, since I don't have it in hand.

The ACE is a double duty item. The concept of using the track without clamps seems to depend on the springiness of the ACEs. Unfortunately, they are never straight once they are cut. Which cutting them is a ridiculous effort so far in my experience. But when you ask around the forum, there are a number of people that simply don't use them and have several different makeshift methods of overcoming them. One would think that you could strike a line and put the edge up to it ... but you can't. By the design they have to be squished or will be squished and will in fact move, not to mention that once used they are continually chewed up and not in a straight and consistent way.

Then there is the repeater. I so wished I could like this, but had to abandon it for other methods. My goal was cutting out panel sides. So the UEG does a great job of cutting things out to a measured width. But I had a goal. I wanted to take a pile of sheet goods and come up with a pile of similarly sized panels. Cutting the long length I figured the repeater set to a particular length and knocked against the bottom of the board and using the square and track to assure squareness. There is, however, enough play, and sag and flex that I was easily able to make a whole bunch of panels ... not 2 of them were the same some of them were off by as much as 3/32" or more. Making a frameless cabinet I need to be within 1 mm. (3/32" is almost 2.5 mm). I was able to get closer with a single paralled edge guide knocked together to register off the center rail.

So, when I look at this, I am not comparing it to Festool. Or any of the other mainstream Makita, dewalt or whomever. I am comparing it to the simplest track, the two layer plywood "door board". Everyone knows how to make this. Attach 2 pieces of sheet goods, one of which having a reasonable factory edge, and cut off the second one to width. Lay this on your cut line and where the edge of the board is, there is where your blade will be. No movement, no squishing no problem. The problem this presents is that you are floating the saw against one side and you "might" pull it away or otherwise wobble it. Perhaps there are some fixes that entail attaching something to the bottom of the saw, zero clearance kind of solutions, or possibly building a base to the saw, and integrating a rail not sure. Attaching another board precisely and permanently to this at a right angle will certainly give the right angle ability like a T-Square. and if it is long enough either clamp on or similar stops can give the repeatability "story-sticking" ability.

So, this system will not fail me if it can't compare with Festool or the other mainstream systems. This system will fail me when it can't compare with what I can knock together out of MDF and Masonite®. This is my standard. This is what I am comparing to. So, it shouldn't be too hard to beat my standard. It should be very hard to disappoint me.

I am sure no one wants to read this. And I apologize to anyone who made it all the way through. I recently had a heart attack, and have been restricted from using my right arm for anything over a pound. So, being restricted from being in the shop with several projects hanging over my head (including the bridge for my power bench project) I find I have too much time to think analytical about this and typing doesn't violate my 1 pound restriction.
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  #30  
Old 02-09-2018, 11:28 AM
Dino Dino is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edison NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
I haven't thought of that quite so much as going back to the Masonite and MDF concept track. Though, perhaps something with a rail, maybe leverage the ez saw base. Or come up with a base of my own to replace the brittle breaking one, and the warpy twisty one. FWIW, I love the concept, and the guide rails are pretty awesome, but the base is not ready for prime time. And definitely not priced at a point were I could replace when needed and afford to put one on each of my saws. Some of my saws would more than double in cost if I put an EZ Base on it Still considering the SSRK though, but I have some misgivings even at the current price deal
best thing is to get some 1/4" masonite and make your own tools.
If you meed any parts and advice we're here to help you.

have fun.
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